Culture?

[Gerikes]

The idea of tying certain buildings with a faction's style (traits, flavor, or something else) that give bonuses to "culture" is intriguing, but I would be wrong to simply accept this without a little bit of grilling the new guy, now wouldn't I?

Do you think that this would in any way "force" the player into that style? For example, what if I really like playing as Deidre for the economical planet bonus, but I don't like doing a lot of stuff with native life forms (that I assume will be a larger part of the game). A lot of the buildings that Deidre makes that give her these cultural bonuses might have to do with allowing native life forms to grow. I would basically be forced to build these buildings to compete culture-wise with others who are doing strategies more towards their Faction's style of play, even though I don't really want them for my strategy.

I would suggest the concept is tied more to Civics, so that a player might want to choose an alternative strategy not common with their faction and still be able to achieve the necessary culture needed to expand. The Civic tie-in can be solo or together with tie-in's to a faction or leaderhead, at least enough to say that if you stick with that faction's type of strategy, you'll be good, but you won't be completely backward culture-wise if you deviate from it. After all, say we go with Social Engineering a leaderhead will already have bonuses for certain bonuses for categories.

An example would be, following the Deidre example, that perhaps Deidre is high in planet, but chooses Civics that put her also reasonably high in tech gain (going for a really big turtle strategy, where she uses her economical strength of xenofungus tiles on a high native-life map together with tech-increasing civics). Any buildings that give bonuses to tech factions don't really increase her culture, even though in this game Planet and Tech are her two main priorities.

 

[woodelf]

So it comes back to the Civics/SE debate. I wouldn't mind tying it in this way either.

 

[Maniac]

As on how to represent "Expansion" graphically in the mod? A new icon instead of would be nice of course! My first thought is something like a "two-suns-with-a-planet" symbol instead of the classic cultural one.

Or perhaps the Doctrine: Mobility tech icon if it's clear enough at such small size?


I like just calling Culture "Expansion". However if you give culture to unique buildings for factions for whom building those buildings was a good idea anyway, you're basically giving culture for free, and removing how and if to get culture as one of the strategic choices of the game.

 

[GeoModder]

Or perhaps the Doctrine: Mobility tech icon if it's clear enough at such small size?

Good call. It maintains the SMAC style then.

Do you think that this would in any way "force" the player into that style? For example, what if I really like playing as Deidre for the economical planet bonus, but I don't like doing a lot of stuff with native life forms (that I assume will be a larger part of the game). A lot of the buildings that Deidre makes that give her these cultural bonuses might have to do with allowing native life forms to grow. I would basically be forced to build these buildings to compete culture-wise with others who are doing strategies more towards their Faction's style of play, even though I don't really want them for my strategy.

I would suggest the concept is tied more to Civics, so that a player might want to choose an alternative strategy not common with their faction and still be able to achieve the necessary culture needed to expand. The Civic tie-in can be solo or together with tie-in's to a faction or leaderhead, at least enough to say that if you stick with that faction's type of strategy, you'll be good, but you won't be completely backward culture-wise if you deviate from it. After all, say we go with Social Engineering a leaderhead will already have bonuses for certain bonuses for categories.

Okay... how about putting a small percentage modifier on so-called faction must-have facilities? Instead of +1 or +2 or something, it adds +5% or +10% . The impact is way less profound and would only work if a basic facility is present that adds culture/expansion to every faction regardless of style. And if you let civic/SE choices offer the brunt of expansion/culture increase (in the range of +50-100%) it would only help, not dominate.
AFAIK, facilities can have a percentage modifier instead of a hard number, since the Hermitage does this already. Just in case someone wondered if facilities CAN do this.


So, the underlying reasoning here is that, for slow /expansion progress, there is only one basic facility that can be constructed in every base (let's call it the Administrator Office or Base Administration for the moment) which would give this hard figure , and civics/SE + this particular facility per faction can only work with this small number to maintain a war with other factions.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Using Doctrine : Mobility as a base, I've done that :

Be careful, this pic is 256x256 so it should appear better with the small icon

 

[woodelf]

That looks pretty cool snipper. Nice job.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I have a dds size 32. Where must I put it if we go with that ?

 

[woodelf]

Buttons aren't my thing, sorry. I think we've found our button maker though!

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

You don't know I've made some buttons previously ?
there are in my sig !
I Can inform you my third pack will be released this weekend.

 

[woodelf]

I knew you made them, but now you've volunteered.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I thought I had specified 2D some times ago.
Here's preview :

 

[GeoModder]

Snipper, you're literally on the ball mate.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I don't know this expression but thanks, and it is Maniac idea to use mobility so he must be congratulated as well.

 

[GeoModder]

I already did.
"on the ball" means being on top of things.

 

[Gerikes]

I already did.
"on the ball" means being on top of things.

And "on top of things" means doing good work in a very timely manner (just in case)...

Okay... how about putting a small percentage modifier on so-called faction must-have facilities? Instead of +1 or +2 or something, it adds +5% or +10% . The impact is way less profound and would only work if a basic facility is present that adds culture/expansion to every faction regardless of style. And if you let civic/SE choices offer the brunt of expansion/culture increase (in the range of +50-100%) it would only help, not dominate.

That would be fine with me. I don't really worry about a base increase vs. a percentage increase, so long as the end result is that a player can play an alternate strategy to their Faction/Leader's strengths and not having to suffer from incredibly poor Expansion. The actual values can be tweaked, but if there were a way to change culture based on buildings, I would at least have it tied to something other than just factions, which can't be changed throughout the game.

AFAIK, facilities can have a percentage modifier instead of a hard number, since the Hermitage does this already. Just in case someone wondered if facilities CAN do this.

And if not, or if it doesn't work the way we want, I could always add a new XML tag.

So, the underlying reasoning here is that, for slow /expansion progress, there is only one basic facility that can be constructed in every base (let's call it the Administrator Office or Base Administration for the moment) which would give this hard figure , and civics/SE + this particular facility per faction can only work with this small number to maintain a war with other factions.

Could we perhaps tie this directly from building to Civic also? For example, a militaristic civic could allow all Barracks to give +3 Expansion, but a planet Civic would allow all Hybrid Forests to give +3 Expansion? This is all regardless of Faction, although perhaps you can also get a +1 from the Barracks if you also are Sparta.

 

[GeoModder]

Could we perhaps tie this directly from building to Civic also? For example, a militaristic civic could allow all Barracks to give +3 Expansion, but a planet Civic would allow all Hybrid Forests to give +3 Expansion? This is all regardless of Faction, although perhaps you can also get a +1 from the Barracks if you also are Sparta.

Mmm... sounds even better, and much clearer then percentages. The number crunchers would love this.
This also means that with the right civic combinations and the right base facilities an "expansion skirmish" is still possible, taking the saying "the occasional skirmish for resources" in the SMAX intro to a whole new meaning.

I can find myself in this. If there are no other objections from anyone, let's do it?

 

[woodelf]

I don't object, but I'd love to also come to a conclusion about civics, SE, or a combo. I'm now in the ambivalent stage after being passionate about SEs for so long. I won't threadjack though...

 

[GRM7584]

I rather like the idea of faction-specific expansion, but before I got to that I realized I was misinterpreting the stated idea of an energy grid; I was seeing it more in the light of what would probably be a morgan-specific factional expansion.
The whole economy is based on energy, right? And you've got an entire planet that is essentially unclaimed, right? It seems to me that since you don't have rural population spread out all over the place (as it is in Civ 4) the way to claim this land would be purely legal in nature; that is, different factions would be struggling to prove ownership of a plot of land not by who lives there, but by who has the superior rights to it; that is why I like the faction-specific expansion idea, but I think another interpretation of an "energy grid" also warrants attention.

Summary:
-Energy is the basis of the economy, not products or labor.
-Bases produce energy.
-The surrounding lands cannot be claimed or held conventionally.

Keeping all that in mind, it seems to me that factions would determine their rights to a given plot of land by who can better supply it with energy, and who can use their labor, the energy supplied, and the land's resources more efficiently to produce more energy for the world economy. Who provides the cheapest power to a given area represents this well enough. To this effect, a Base's "Energy Grid" represents how far a base can efficiently transmit power, while also being a measure of its economic strength.

So: I think that the key "Culture" generators should be industrial reactors geared towards lossless energy transmission over long distances, with other power-and-energy-associated buildings providing smaller amounts. This would also involve a retooling of the culture system: instead of "gradually" generating "culture", it would come in clumps with the completion of new or upgraded facilities. It would also mean that buildings of an essentially economic nature would be the prime movers for borders. "Spending" energy credits on "culture" would be the equivalent of investing in Relay Stations throughout your borders, with the more prosperous bases having more energy to direct towards it, and would be the only way to "gradually" grow borders.

Since energy means security in a society that uses it as a currency, culture flipping still makes sense: If a base's population is being overlooked for economic development by their factional leaders to the point that a nearby faction's surplus energy production abilities completely overshadow their own, they might start to question their loyalties.

This would also mean that a "Domination Victory" would have more in common with "Cornering the Global Energy Market" from SMAC. Imagine a situation where Morgan is approaching his mark on total land area needed for victory; Deirdre prepares to invade his core cities with a strike force of native life forms, but in one of his dinky cities at the edge of her territory, he manages to complete a new state-of-the-art power generator, offering cheaper power services to a swath of her faction's territory than her own bases can afford to offer with their outdated planet-friendly reactors; suddenly she is facing Bases without the means to draw enough resources from the outside, since the industries based in her former territory are subscribing to Morgan's cheaper power network now! She has to put off her attack, as her cities can't produce enough units to finish her task force in time, allowing Morgan enough time to build another generator and establish Morgan Industries as the dominant energy-supplier on the planet, effectively winning the game.

...having said all that, I think the more general "expansion idea", and all the associated points brought up in relation to it, is a very good interpretation, and could easily include what I've just put as a Morgan-specific way of looking at things.

 

[Wodan]

I like the idea of a range of transmitted power. That makes the most sense to me, out of all the things tossed around.

One question was how does it make sense for another civ's borders to push yours out? How about this: transmitted power requires specific harmonics / frequencies, and is encoded so that only your own equipment can use it. Different harmonics interfere with each other. So, it makes sense that one civ with stronger transmitters or whatever will be able to push its borders further.

Transmitted power also makes sense in how it enables units to repair (heal) faster.

By the way this would be "low grade" power. Enough to run a sensor net and minor things like that, but nothing on the scale to enable a hovertank to run (in other words, vehicles require their own power plant despite this energy grid).

Plus, transmitted power is a technology that we (Earth) don't have right now, so we have license to make up how it functions. i.e., we can do whatever we want for good gameplay.

Wodan

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Micro-waves transmission ! It is a solid track of research actually. It consists of satellites collecting energy and transmitting it to earth via micro-waves !