Culture?

[Rubin]

I think my vision of "culture" in Planetfall does not differ much from the Civ4 model. At least not when compared to the suggestions and ideas in this thread.

Do you want culture to spread? Do you want "cultural border wars" (aggressive culture) and "culture bombs"?

 

[woodelf]

I don't mind normal culture if it spreads more slowly and less each spread. Frontier space colonies should not get huge cultural borders.

 

[Rubin]

I re-read this thread to get an idea of what you could be interested in. So, here another idea on how to address "cultural territory" in the mod:

(Note: The game mechanics concerning "culture" (including infiltration and encryption) that I've been considering during the last few days have not been updated to reflect this alternative.)

When setting up an HQ (initial base and subsequent relocations) we are assuming that tiles near the HQ are part of this process. An Energy Grid is "activated" on the tiles in a 3 tile radius. The grid structure is some kind of "wireless power" and "psi/psych" emission originating from the HQ complex.

New bases function as additional grid structures connecting the "fat cross" tiles around the base to the grid.

Terraformers can construct Grid Towers on tiles in order to strengthen or expand the grid in a 3x3 or "fat cross" area.

Is this more in line with the feature we want?

Edit: woodelf, we could combine this approach with a very slow "cultural" expansion that would only make a difference late game.

 

[Maniac]

:idea: If the idea of a Planet value at base level is accepted, how about for each net positive Planet you have, you get one extra culture/psych/whatever at that base? And the other way around, for each net negative Planet you have (in other words, if you're causing eco-damage) that base gets -1 culture/psych? The idea being that it's harder to control territory if you're hostile to Planet.

 

[woodelf]

That sounds logical to me, but we're really going to have to balance the hell out of SE/civics to make it so +Planet isn't overpowered. I'm not complaining, just stating the obvious.

 

[Maniac]

Yeah I'm just concentrating on thinking up cool effects for following a Centauri strategy because I'm assuming that's the "alternative" game strategy. Being Planet-unfriendly should of course have other good effects, most obvious being able to have a higher population and production.

 

[Rubin]

I am thinking of having culture spread in plots in two steps. 1) Normal Civ4 culture accumulation and 2) facility derived culture levels and accumulation.

When founding a base it has culture level 1 (see image below), just like default Civ4. If the base generates any culture (i.e. from facilities or specialists) it can advance quickly to culture level 2 (the fat cross). The spread speed can be similar to default Civ4.

However, a base cannot normally reach culture levels beyond level 2! Culture continues to accumulate in plots included in level 2 (fat cross).

In order to advance to culture level 3 the base needs specific facilities. The HQ's palace is such a facility, it adds culture level 3. Still, the base generated culture does not affect the 3rd level--only the culture from the palace is accumulated in the 3rd level.

Non-HQ bases can construct culture facilities similar to palaces.

As technology progresses we can allow for level 4 and perhaps level 5 (or more) facilities, though this should be somewhat deep into the tech tree. Such facilities could act as part culture bomb (a fixed value added to plots) and part culture generators.

This is the passive spread. Terrain improvements can be used for active spread, i.e. a Grid Tower that spreads culture in a level 1 or level 2 radius--it could even work as a base in that it advances in culture levels.

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

Does this make sense?

 

[Gerikes]

I am thinking of having culture spread in plots in two steps. 1) Normal Civ4 culture accumulation and 2) facility derived culture levels and accumulation.

When founding a base it has culture level 1 (see image below), just like default Civ4. If the base generates any culture (i.e. from facilities or specialists) it can advance quickly to culture level 2 (the fat cross). The spread speed can be similar to default Civ4.

However, a base cannot normally reach culture levels beyond level 2! Culture continues to accumulate in plots included in level 2 (fat cross).

In order to advance to culture level 3 the base needs specific facilities. The HQ's palace is such a facility, it adds culture level 3. Still, the base generated culture does not affect the 3rd level--only the culture from the palace is accumulated in the 3rd level.

Non-HQ bases can construct culture facilities similar to palaces.

As technology progresses we can allow for level 4 and perhaps level 5 (or more) facilities, though this should be somewhat deep into the tech tree. Such facilities could act as part culture bomb (a fixed value added to plots) and part culture generators.

This is the passive spread. Terrain improvements can be used for active spread, i.e. a Grid Tower that spreads culture in a level 1 or level 2 radius--it could even work as a base in that it advances in culture levels.

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

Does this make sense?

One question:

Let's say you need 10 culture for level 1, 200 for 2, 1000 for 3.

If you hit level 2 with a city without any buildings to advance to three, do you continue gathering culture and just stop at 1000 and as soon as you build a required building move to level 3? Or do you stop at 200 and once you finish a required building you start your climb to lvl three? Or would there be a middle-of-the-road? Or would it just keep accumulating, even if you hit lvl five in accumulated points but you're stuck at three?

Also, I think earlier we had a few people mention that perhaps as well as slowing down cutlure, the first step might be a "thin cross" (just the four horizontal plots adjacent to the city), or something else that deviates from Civ4 to make capturing land a bit tougher. I liked the idea of having more "neutral" territory to work with in the beginning-mid game. Your idea would certainly provide that, but I think we could also look at making the cross a bit smaller.

Of course, that all takes into account what we'd like to do for improvements. If the first step is a "thin cross" and the second is a square, do we allow for improvements to be built in the newly acquired plots after obtaining a "fat cross"? We could always have improvements be allowed to be built on non-cultured squares, but I think that would seriously limit the point of having culture early on. And, it would just make sense that if culture is an "energy grid" that you would need energy to run your improvements.

 

[Rubin]

One question:

Let's say you need 10 culture for level 1, 200 for 2, 1000 for 3.

If you hit level 2 with a city without any buildings to advance to three, do you continue gathering culture and just stop at 1000 and as soon as you build a required building move to level 3? Or do you stop at 200 and once you finish a required building you start your climb to lvl three? Or would there be a middle-of-the-road? Or would it just keep accumulating, even if you hit lvl five in accumulated points but you're stuck at three?

That is not entirely how it works.

In my examples in my previous post there was no culture value requirement for the 3rd level.

Think of it like this:

A base can only spread culture in the fat cross (level 2). By spread, I mean that culture is accumulated in the plots included in level 2. Once level 2 is achieved, culture does not grow into level 3. Level 2 is the maximum radius of city culture. Accumulation continues.

In order to have culture affecting level 3 plots you need a special building (SBL3). SBL3 does NOT affect city generated culture; rather, it generates culture on its own in a level 3 radius. Hence, affecting plots outside the fat cross (level 2). SBL3 cannot affect culture at level 4+, but it affects all plots within the level 3 radius.

Makes sense now?

 

[woodelf]

Makes sense to me.

Does this mean we're trying to keep bases further apart than vanilla civ4? The 3rd and 4th and beyond rings might not come into play very often.

And what do you do when a rival faction's 5th ring is encroaching on your 2nd ring? How is this going to be resolved?

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.

 

[Rubin]

Makes sense to me.

Does this mean we're trying to keep bases further apart than vanilla civ4? The 3rd and 4th and beyond rings might not come into play very often.

And what do you do when a rival faction's 5th ring is encroaching on your 2nd ring? How is this going to be resolved?

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.

The 3rd and 4th levels will come into play, but it requires the player to actively seek it. I think base placement will become similar to Civ4.

Culture wars are resolved just like Civ4. Cities can flip, just like Civ4 (if we want flipping).

 

[woodelf]

I wasn't too worried about flipping, but more the tug of war over tiles. Will each tile's cultural value be counted the same no matter how it is accumulated? Not that I understand tile ownership anyhow.

 

[Gerikes]

That is not entirely how it works.

In my examples in my previous post there was no culture value requirement for the 3rd level.

Think of it like this:

A base can only spread culture in the fat cross (level 2). By spread, I mean that culture is accumulated in the plots included in level 2. Once level 2 is achieved, culture does not grow into level 3. Level 2 is the maximum radius of city culture. Accumulation continues.

In order to have culture affecting level 3 plots you need a special building (SBL3). SBL3 does NOT affect city generated culture; rather, it generates culture on its own in a level 3 radius. Hence, affecting plots outside the fat cross (level 2). SBL3 cannot affect culture at level 4+, but it affects all plots within the level 3 radius.

Makes sense now?

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense now.

 

[Rubin]

Will each tile's cultural value be counted the same no matter how it is accumulated?

Yes, I should think so.

 

[Maniac]

In Planetfall culture is called "Energy Grid".

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

 

[Gerikes]

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

Since the "energy grid" is really, as I see it, something that is just how strong the energy field coming from your base is, I would say we could easily have Planet-friendly buildings that allow for extra energy (culture) output. I think it would make more sense. I'm still not sure what I think about psi in something that goes past a simple unit.

 

[Rubin]

I'd suggest to consider culture as both the energy grid and psi control. That way we can have a Planet-friendly and Planet-unfriendly way of expanding your territory.

I am already considering this but haven't had the chance to present something tangible.

 

[Maniac]

Since the "energy grid" is really, as I see it, something that is just how strong the energy field coming from your base is, I would say we could easily have Planet-friendly buildings that allow for extra energy (culture) output. I think it would make more sense. I'm still not sure what I think about psi in something that goes past a simple unit.

I think it's possible to combine both the energy grid and psi as ways to control territory. IIRC the reason why it was suggested to use the energy grid as concept for culture is because you need the energy grid connected everywhere to power up all the various terrain improvements etc outside your base. But of course, being able to supply energy somewhere is pointless if it's too dangerous for your colonists to move far away from the base without being whacked by mind worms. So from that point it makes sense that Planet-unfriendly factions will have a harder time controlling the area far away from their base (see the proposed Planet value on base level). If you are strong in the Psi force however, you can either use these powers to befriend the mind worms, making it easier to control the surrounding area, or create a psi field around your base repelling the mind worms.

A common explanation of what psi really is, was to consider psi the fifth fundamental force in the universe, besides gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction. So basically psi would then also be just another form of energy, and using Progenitor technology, you could create machinery which emits a psi field, forming a resonance grid, whatever you want you call it, which transforms energy into psi and also repels native life. (In game terms: the turn commerce into culture process)

So basically I think energy grid and psi control can be perfectly combined.

 

[Gerikes]

I think it's possible to combine both the energy grid and psi as ways to control territory. IIRC the reason why it was suggested to use the energy grid as concept for culture is because you need the energy grid connected everywhere to power up all the various terrain improvements etc outside your base. But of course, being able to supply energy somewhere is pointless if it's too dangerous for your colonists to move far away from the base without being whacked by mind worms. So from that point it makes sense that Planet-unfriendly factions will have a harder time controlling the area far away from their base (see the proposed Planet value on base level). If you are strong in the Psi force however, you can either use these powers to befriend the mind worms, making it easier to control the surrounding area, or create a psi field around your base repelling the mind worms.

A common explanation of what psi really is, was to consider psi the fifth fundamental force in the universe, besides gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong interaction. So basically psi would then also be just another form of energy, and using Progenitor technology, you could create machinery which emits a psi field, forming a resonance grid, whatever you want you call it, which transforms energy into psi and also repels native life. (In game terms: the turn commerce into culture process)

So basically I think energy grid and psi control can be perfectly combined.

If you guys can come up with the rationalization like that, I'd go for it ;P

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Very inventive and scientifically acceptable as this theory is not currently refuted. It's the same than MOND theory ( Modified Newton Dynamics ) which tell that mutual attraction between two celestial corpse isn't strictly inverse proportionnal to d².
I'll go for it !