Culture?

[woodelf]

edit - Too funny. The smilie is agreeing and pointing to nothing since snipper's post is at the dreaded bottom of the page.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

It's a bad habit for me.

 

[woodelf]

That's the snipper position.

 

[Rubin]

In line with my previous statements on abstraction versus detail, I'd prefer to leave the explantions of the concepts somewhat open.

I suggest the name Psych Grid.

The Psych Grid combines energy, psi and whatever else we can think of that is required to keep citizens, workers and military "happy". As in both SMAC/X and Civ4, happiness can be derived from many different sources; military protection, police, luxuries (resources), culture, facilities, etc. I use the abstract term Psych to denote any kind of happiness (or happiness effect)--just as it is done in SMAC/X; I leave it to the player to deal with connotations; be it education, fungal gin, safety, etc.

The Grid is the structure by which Psych is distributed outside of the bases, but this should be considered in close relation to what happens at the base. For example, researchers "in the field" need to be in close contact with the labs at the base in order to work more efficiently.

Energy (or power) is distributed via the Grid as part of the Psych abstraction but the grid is capable of far more than simply conveying wireless power. Whether energy is converted somehow into psi or psi is distributed via the grid is irrelevant. My reasoning for the slider conversion from gold (energy) to psych is simply that the grid has a maintenance and "running" cost and the more gold poured into the Psych Grid the more efficient it becomes.

This approach can fit with Maniac's idea of Planet related effects. The Psych Grid is sustained by some kind of generators or emitters, conveying energy, psi and all that--from the base, that is. If the base holds a Psi Controller facility or something, more psi is distributed via the Psych Grid and affects native lifeforms inside the Psych Grid (cultural borders), but the Psych Grid can function even without any significant psi distribution (though native life would probably be increasingly aggressive). Without the safety provided by "psi protection" we can rationalize that safety is derived from drugs or some kind of propaganda, etc., etc.

I should think it possible to have a specific base facility depend on Planet rating, so that we can allow borders to extend based on Planet rating. For example, consider two facilities: The Grid Administration and the Manifold Resonator.

The Grid Administration facility gives and affects a level 4 Psych Grid. The Manifold Resonator provides a Psych Grid level corresponding to the current Planet rating; hence with a Planet rating of 4 the Manifold Resonator affects the same area as a Grid Administration. With a Planet rating of 6 the Manifold Resonator provides a level 6 Psych Grid, etc., etc. Even with a Grid Administration present in the base, the Manifold Resonator will still strengthen the Psych Grid, thus making Planet rating matter even if you are running a low Planet rating (we could even make it so that a negative Planet rating subtracts accumulated "culture" from plots if a Manifold Resonator is present at the base. -5 Planet rating would affect a level 5 area negatively. Might be worth considering if we can scrap such facilities.)

We can think of all sorts of Planet rating related effects within the Psych Grid; bonus/penalty to psi warfare, fungus tile output, fungal blooms, etc.

This basically represents how I've viewed the concept of culture since post #11 in this thread with the addition of Planet rating effects.

 

[Gerikes]

That's the snipper position.

lol

In line with my previous statements on abstraction versus detail, I'd prefer to leave the explantions of the concepts somewhat open.

I suggest the name Psych Grid.

The Psych Grid combines energy, psi and whatever else we can think of that is required to keep citizens, workers and military "happy". As in both SMAC/X and Civ4, happiness can be derived from many different sources; military protection, police, luxuries (resources), culture, facilities, etc. I use the abstract term Psych to denote any kind of happiness (or happiness effect)--just as it is done in SMAC/X; I leave it to the player to deal with connotations; be it education, fungal gin, safety, etc.

I wish I could find the link, but I remember reading an article that made sense to me at the time. When it comes to Science Fiction (as opposed to, say, Fantasy) it's sometimes tough to sell what's going on in the story/game/etc, because it's not been done before. Even fantasy has old technology (like a Chariot), but with Sci-Fi it's all the new technology that is unknown and unusual to us. And once you start getting into an area where what is actually going on is unknown, you start making players uncomfortable.

I know what culture is, but I don't know what a Psych Field is. The description you give is good, but I think that it's too abstract. I think this works in Civ, because players can recognize what's going on under the name of "Culture", but for a futuristic world, these lower-level functions are unknown, and I would hope to provide those details to the player.

When I read your article, I thought of a "Psych Field" some kind of new force ("Psi") that can be emitted similar to radio waves, and those waves could be picked up by humans who can then transfer them into a procedure to release endorphins (handling the "happiness") or picked up by machines to transfer directly into energy to power those machines. Your Psi channels can be run on certain frequencies that, on all channels, machines and humans get mostly the same effect, but Native Life Forms, who are much more sensitive to the Psi frequencies, will behave friendly or hostile based on the frequency you're running (which is determined from your Planet value).

I'm looking for a hard solution such as that, really low level. I'd like to hear what others have to say about going with a high-, mid-, or low-level detail for this.

 

[Rubin]

Gerikes, two things:

1) Its Psych Grid, not field.

2) While the Psych Grid in itself is an entity (consisting of transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc.) Psych is NOT an entity. Psych is an abstraction, a concept. It can denote entities or particulars like the "force field" you describe, but such a force field would only be one component among many that are part of the Psych abstraction and therefore part of the Psych Grid.

While (wireless) energy/power may not necessarily be part of the Psych concept, energy/power can still be part of the Psych Grid.

Edit: I don't think it difficult to do a Civilopedia entry that explains all of this in more detail--while preserving the abstract nature of the Psych concept and the Psych Grid.

edit 2: I like your description of the Psych Field very much, Gerikes!

 

[Gerikes]

Gerikes, two things:

1) Its Psych Grid, not field.

My mistake

2) While the Psych Grid in itself is an entity (consisting of transmitters, emitters, structures, waves, etc.) Psych is NOT an entity. Psych is an abstraction, a concept. It can denote entities or particulars like the "force field" you describe, but such a force field would only be one component among many that are part of the Psych abstraction and therefore part of the Psych Grid.

I understand what you're saying. I am just of the mindset that in many cases I'm aware of, the main goal of abstraction is to hide things that are potentially overbearing to the user (as is the case of Cultural micromanagemnt, imagine having to set a bunch of different sliders, one for music, another for theatre, another for film, etc.).

I believe, however, that in a sci-fi game, the most important part is allowing players to play with futuristic ideas. I just don't like the idea of saying "in the future, there's a concept of a Psych Grid. You can increase or decrease it as you will, but it's like a futuristic version of culture, for more info read the Civilopedia." I think that the main ideas of what the Psych Grid represents should be directly in the game, and the Civilopedia should delve deeper into the subject. In order to do this in an effecient manner, the Psych Grid cannot abstract a bunch of different ideas.

Luckily, I don't think that it's too necessary, as in the end what we have is basically culture put into a different wordings. It would be tough to test out the two different ideas that we have because they essential, as game rules go, do the exact same thing. I just think it would be more interesting to have a solidified notion of what the tiles represent rather than seeing some abstract concept.

 

[GeoModder]

Quite a discussion on how to describe a basic concept.

However you call it, energy grid, culture, psych field/grid, what it all boils down to is the presence of people with a certain mindset/technical power on those plots. Simply put, it is Expansion.

I think this label could cover most of the ideas brought up in the thread. The presence of people, whether they are there to herald their convictions or to construct a powerline to power their machines is the basic thing here. I know that few people would go out on a dangerous planet, but the bottom point is that some people will have to get out to those areas to help support their kin back at base, whether it be as researchers of native life, engineers putting up a tankfarm or mine or solar panel or military types securing a perimeter.

So, how does this sound as a new culture definition on a virgin planet?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I've proposed Propaganda in an other thread, so I post it here. Geo's Expansion looks a bit like Exclusive Economic Area.

 

[GeoModder]

The beauty of it (in my view) is that it covers all sorts of territorial progress of any sort of faction. If you're the Spartans, you expand your area by military presence. As the Gaians, you embrace the land you live in. Morganite presence is the the EEA you refer to, Snipper.
It could even be done that the way territory expands is different for the main ideologies: Gaian expansion is aided by ie Chiron Preserves, biolabs and such. The Spartan barracks does the same for them. Morganites do extra influence by energy banks and similar facilities... and so on for the other factions.

 

[woodelf]

So civ-specific buildings grant ? Or at least buildings can be built by all civs, but when Miriam builds a temple it aids Expansion whereas Santiago wouldn't gain expansion from this building. I like that if that's what you mean.

 

[GeoModder]

That's what I meant.
I also think this hints a player to a certain factionstyle while not deliberaty forcing him since it is partly (mostly?) done by a constructed facility.

 

[woodelf]

I really like it Geo.

So all buildings and Factions are going to be tagged in a certain manner so that if the tags match then culture is added to the city.

What about tweener factions? Say you're 50-50 Industrial-Religious? Would you get 1/2 culture for buildings from each class?

And I have no idea which faction is industrial-religious in the example.

 

[GeoModder]

I really like it Geo.

So all buildings and Factions are going to be tagged in a certain manner so that if the tags match then culture is added to the city.

Thanks. And yes, if the majority agrees to such a system.
It could be as elaborate as a check on the type of facilities a faction has in a given base, or simply a + [insert number here] on particular facilities this faction owns. Quite a bit like the unique building concept in Warlords in the latter example.

What about tweener factions? Say you're 50-50 Industrial-Religious? Would you get 1/2 culture for buildings from each class?

And I have no idea which faction is industrial-religious in the example.

Haven't thought sofar yet, but the I read some indications that the so-called tweener factions would start later as offspring from the 7 core-factions? In any case, there will be facilities that suit the offspring factions the most like a Covert Ops Centre for the Data Angels, or a Brood Pit for the Cult of Planet.

 

[woodelf]

If the majority agrees is this something as easy as checking flavor and adding it to culture or will it require python/SDK I wonder...

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

It's OK for me ! It could be achieved via traits ( Unique Power ? ) giving extra expansion to particular buildings. Two points : 1/the balancing 2/ How to represents Expansion points ?

 

[woodelf]

1 - Balancing is always fun in playtesting. It helps when a lot of different styles are playing, which I think we have here.

2 - A big hand reaching for more?

 

[GeoModder]

Well, I have this inclination to let certain facilities for certain factions double up the functions. Like a Spartan barrack gives the (normal) +[insert number] effect on morale/XP, but in addition gives a +[insert number] effect on culture/expansion. A lot like the unique building concept in Warlords. It would also omit the need for the Spartans to build (hologram) theatres so to speak.
The second consideration was (on doubling up functions on facilities) to decrease the workload on modelers if facilities would be showed in cities/bases. I haven't found out yet if this will happen or not in the mod, as I've seen discussion on if there should be unique graphics for facilities or not.

As on how to represent "Expansion" graphically in the mod? A new icon instead of would be nice of course! My first thought is something like a "two-suns-with-a-planet" symbol instead of the classic cultural one.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I think it could be a hand holding a (red?) flag.

 

[GeoModder]

Now, don't get commie on us.