Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[SheaferDaDawg]

Great, thanks guys.

Boy, I have a lot of threads to sift through

 

[BenZL43]

First look at v1.11
- Chandragupta still missing it's welcome greetings.
- Mongolia collapsed on the turn it spawn, but I think it's not a bug since I saw Chinese Qara Korum. It looks like Chinese are assaulting the Mongol, took Qara Qorum and collapse it.

 

[MKPhoenix]

^ In my first and only 1.11 game so far (as Japan) Mongolia have had low stability from pretty much the beginning, they haven't collapsed yet c1600's and they did the job against China well enough - though I beat them to Kaifeng, Shanghai and Fouzhou - however, they've been unstable/collapsing almost every turn of their existence.

 

[Leoreth]

New revision is up. Content: the new civics.

I have deactivated civic stability and various other aspects of the stability module for now, so don't expect it to function properly. This is basically to allow you a look at the new civics, if you want to actually play I suggest sticking to a previous revision.

 

[theHIStorymaker]

Can you please post them here for those of us who do not have SVN?

 

[FinalLegendZero]

Latest version is incompatible with VD/EC.

 

[Leoreth]

Can you please post them here for those of us who do not have SVN?

From the history file:

Spoiler :

# GOVERNMENT
1. Dynasticism: +1 happiness per military unit (+3 max)
2. City States: +1 food per specialist, +100% number of cities upkeep
3. Theocracy: +2 happiness with state religion, unlimited priests, +2 experience with state religion
4. Autocracy: +3 happiness with barracks, can draft 1 unit, +50% great general rate, +25% espionage
5. Republic: +50% great people rate, +100% cottage growth
# ORGANIZATION:
1. Vassalage: +2 experience, +2 happiness with Castle
2. Absolutism: +40% production and commerce in capital
3. Representation: +1 free specialist
4. Totalitarianism: +1 happiness per military unit (+5 max), no city distance upkeep, unlimited spies
5. Egalitarianism: +2 happiness in largest cities, +1 production from town, unhappiness for civs without Egalitarianism
# LABOR
1. Slavery: can hurry with population, +1 commerce from plantation, slave plantation
2. Agrarianism: +1 commerce from farm
3. Capitalism: +2 commerce from town, +10% commerce
4. Industrialism: +1 production from workshop, watermill, unlimited engineers
5. Public Welfare: unlimited artist, scientist, merchant, +2 science per specialist, can hurry buildings with gold, double production for University, Public Transport
# ECONOMY
1. Guilds: +1 gold per specialist, +1 production from workshop
2. Mercantilism: no foreign trade routes, +25% trade route yield, +25% gold in capital, +1 commerce from workshop
3. Free Market: +1 trade route, increased corporation spread
4. Central Planning: +1 production per specialist, +1 food from workshop, watermill, double production for Factory, Coal Plant
5. Environmentalism: -30% pollution, +2 gold from windmill, forest preserve, +1 happiness with Public Transportation, double production for Recycling Center, Hydro Plant
# RELIGION
1. Pantheon: +1 happiness with Pagan Temple, can construct classical wonders
2. Organized Religion: +25% building speed with state religion, allows missionaries
3. Scholasticism: +25% great people birth with state religion
4. Fanaticism: +25% unit production with state religion, no foreign religion spread
5. Secularism: +10% research, no religious unhappiness, no state religion
# MILITARY
1. Warrior Code: -50% war weariness, double production for Stable
2. Mercenaries: can hurry units with gold, +1 gold upkeep per unit
3. Levy Armies: +50% improvement speed, additional free units
4. Standing Army: +25% unit production, +2 experience
5. Conscription: can draft 2 units, +50% experience within own borders, double production for Barracks

Latest version is incompatible with VD/EC.

That was bound to happen. The modules aren't meant to remain compatible with the SVN version.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

That was bound to happen. The modules aren't meant to remain compatible with the SVN version.

Ah, okay. Fortunately, I had a non-VD backup, so I'm still good.

 

[blizzrd]

I think these changes look generally good. Caveat: I haven't updated SVN yet because I'm still finishing a game with an older revision.

Are there still default civics in each category with no benefits/effects?
What are the various upkeep costs (none/low/medium/high)?

# GOVERNMENT
1. Dynasticism: +1 happiness per military unit (+3 max)
2. City States: +1 food per specialist, +100% number of cities upkeep
3. Theocracy: +2 happiness with state religion, unlimited priests, +2 experience with state religion
4. Autocracy: +3 happiness with barracks, can draft 1 unit, +50% great general rate, +25% espionage
5. Republic: +50% great people rate, +100% cottage growth

I think Autocracy should also provide an experience bonus like the effect of the Pentagon.

# ORGANIZATION:
1. Vassalage: +2 experience, +2 happiness with Castle
2. Absolutism: +40% production and commerce in capital
3. Representation: +1 free specialist
4. Totalitarianism: +1 happiness per military unit (+5 max), no city distance upkeep, unlimited spies
5. Egalitarianism: +2 happiness in largest cities, +1 production from town, unhappiness for civs without Egalitarianism

Does Representation still attract a penalty for having more than a certain number of cities, or has this been removed?

# LABOR
1. Slavery: can hurry with population, +1 commerce from plantation, slave plantation
2. Agrarianism: +1 commerce from farm
3. Capitalism: +2 commerce from town, +10% commerce
4. Industrialism: +1 production from workshop, watermill, unlimited engineers
5. Public Welfare: unlimited artist, scientist, merchant, +2 science per specialist, can hurry buildings with gold, double production for University, Public Transport

Industrialism seems to be very weak compared to the others in this category. I think it needs a bit of a buff. Perhaps take away from Central Planning and add here double production speed for building Factories/Coal Plants/Industrial Complexes?

# ECONOMY
1. Guilds: +1 gold per specialist, +1 production from workshop
2. Mercantilism: no foreign trade routes, +25% trade route yield, +25% gold in capital, +1 commerce from workshop
3. Free Market: +1 trade route, increased corporation spread
4. Central Planning: +1 production per specialist, +1 food from workshop, watermill, double production for Factory, Coal Plant
5. Environmentalism: -30% pollution, +2 gold from windmill, forest preserve, +1 happiness with Public Transportation, double production for Recycling Center, Hydro Plant

I think Central Planning is good enough with +1 production per specialist and +1 food from workshops and Watermills without needing the double production for Factory and Coal Plant. Do you mean +2 gold or +2 commerce from Environmentalism? Perhaps the -30% pollution is a bit redundant given the effect of Recycling Center. I'm not seeing enough reasons to switch out of Central Planning and into Environmentalsim at this stage.

# RELIGION
1. Pantheon: +1 happiness with Pagan Temple, can construct classical wonders
2. Organized Religion: +25% building speed with state religion, allows missionaries
3. Scholasticism: +25% great people birth with state religion
4. Fanaticism: +25% unit production with state religion, no foreign religion spread
5. Secularism: +10% research, no religious unhappiness, no state religion

Would it be too overpowered to allow Scholasticism to also provide the ability to build missionaries without Monasteries? I skip Scholasticism and stay in Organised Religion because the buliding speed bonus is so much more valuable for large empires.

# MILITARY
1. Warrior Code: -50% war weariness, double production for Stable
2. Mercenaries: can hurry units with gold, +1 gold upkeep per unit
3. Levy Armies: +50% improvement speed, additional free units
4. Standing Army: +25% unit production, +2 experience
5. Conscription: can draft 2 units, +50% experience within own borders, double production for Barracks

Surely by the time Conscription is available most cities would already have a Barracks? I would have thought that this bonus is better placed/timed with Warrior Code. The experience bonus within own borders is very underwhelming. I rarely fight battles within my own borders, so would not be particularly interested in this effect. Its benefit is really only apparent when you are under siege attack by an AI civ, which is not a common situation that I find myself in. The bonuses from Standing Army would be superior in just about every case that I can think of.

 

[blizzrd]

Within the new civics, which ones will allow the settling of Slave units on plantations and in cities?

 

[theHIStorymaker]

Do you intend to revamp the revolt system as well? As it currently stands, Cristo Redentor becomes insanely necessary in the late game, which isn't very fun. I'm not sure quite how to do it, maybe remove the empire stagnation and just have a sizable stability hit?

 

[Leoreth]

I think these changes look generally good. Caveat: I haven't updated SVN yet because I'm still finishing a game with an older revision.

Are there still default civics in each category with no benefits/effects?
What are the various upkeep costs (none/low/medium/high)?

Can't look them up right now, I'll post them and the prereq techs soon. The upkeep costs have changed for a number of civics though.

I think Autocracy should also provide an experience bonus like the effect of the Pentagon.

Isn't Autocracy useful enough right now? I'd rather limit most military effects to the Military column, and it already allows to draft.

Does Representation still attract a penalty for having more than a certain number of cities, or has this been removed?

Currently all civic stability effects are inactive. Since I have to write everything from scratch soon, I can actively decide to bring it back. And to be honest it never really made sense to me. Shouldn't it make your colonies happy to give them Representation?

In general I doubt I will bring back static city limits for certain civics, including Absolutism. Like in srpt's stability mechanism your expansion stability will depend on the population ratio between your core and your historical/ahistorical areas, and I could see various civics factor into the involved thresholds there.

Industrialism seems to be very weak compared to the others in this category. I think it needs a bit of a buff. Perhaps take away from Central Planning and add here double production speed for building Factories/Coal Plants/Industrial Complexes?

I thought that too. I'd rather keep the building production stuff with Central Planning though. I could imagine a flat +10% production or +1 hammer with mines though.

I think Central Planning is good enough with +1 production per specialist and +1 food from workshops and Watermills without needing the double production for Factory and Coal Plant. Do you mean +2 gold or +2 commerce from Environmentalism? Perhaps the -30% pollution is a bit redundant given the effect of Recycling Center. I'm not seeing enough reasons to switch out of Central Planning and into Environmentalsim at this stage.

Yeah, it's commerce (tiles can't yield gold directly after all). It should be noted though that Central Planning still has the one corporation per city limitation, and as mentioned elsewhere I intend to make corporations create unhealthiness and unhappiness, which Environmentalism could negate/reduce, so they won't be as imbalanced as they sound now.

Would it be too overpowered to allow Scholasticism to also provide the ability to build missionaries without Monasteries? I skip Scholasticism and stay in Organised Religion because the buliding speed bonus is so much more valuable for large empires.

I'm not sure. My general impression was that Scholasticism was already used quite often to farm GPs.

Surely by the time Conscription is available most cities would already have a Barracks? I would have thought that this bonus is better placed/timed with Warrior Code. The experience bonus within own borders is very underwhelming. I rarely fight battles within my own borders, so would not be particularly interested in this effect. Its benefit is really only apparent when you are under siege attack by an AI civ, which is not a common situation that I find myself in. The bonuses from Standing Army would be superior in just about every case that I can think of.

The Barracks and Warrior Code stuff occured to me too after a while. Barracks where only added as an afterthought after I implemented the ability originally for Central Planning, because Conscription indeed seemed to lack purpose.

Standing Army has high upkeep though, and Conscription medium I think, which could be reduced to low. Generally Standing Army is supposed to be the superior civic with Conscription more like an alternative for production poor civs who would rely more on drafting.

I'm not sure, do you have any ideas to balance the two?

Within the new civics, which ones will allow the settling of Slave units on plantations and in cities?

It's still the same set of civics, Slavery to create and use slaves, Agrarianism and Mercantilism to keep those you already have.

Do you intend to revamp the revolt system as well? As it currently stands, Cristo Redentor becomes insanely necessary in the late game, which isn't very fun. I'm not sure quite how to do it, maybe remove the empire stagnation and just have a sizable stability hit?

You mean the anarchy? I think that needs to stay, but the permanent stability penalties associated with it will go.

I also intend to change the rules regarding golden ages. Civic changes in golden ages would still cost anarchy but not "cost" you GA turns in the meantime.

 

[blizzrd]

Isn't Autocracy useful enough right now? I'd rather limit most military effects to the Military column, and it already allows to draft.

On reflection, you're probably right about Autocracy.

And to be honest it never really made sense to me. Shouldn't it make your colonies happy to give them Representation?

I think that Rhye was trying to keep the theme of destabilisation going strong on this one. Just like in the Greek City States, Representation was good to a point and then it was simply unstable.

I'm not sure. My general impression was that Scholasticism was already used quite often to farm GPs.

I use it as the Moors (who start with it) because I don't know that the UHV can be won without it. But for most other civs, waiting a little longer for the next GP is offset by the production bonus in my view.

Standing Army has high upkeep though, and Conscription medium I think, which could be reduced to low. Generally Standing Army is supposed to be the superior civic with Conscription more like an alternative for production poor civs who would rely more on drafting.

I'm not sure, do you have any ideas to balance the two?

What about along the lines of if Conscription didn't cost population during drafting at the same rate as without Conscription? Or under Conscription allow military units to be built using surplus food (like for Levy)?

I also intend to change the rules regarding golden ages. Civic changes in golden ages would still cost anarchy but not "cost" you GA turns in the meantime.

Ooh, tasty.

 

[Leoreth]

What about along the lines of if Conscription didn't cost population during drafting at the same rate as without Conscription? Or under Conscription allow military units to be built using surplus food (like for Levy)?

For some time I planned for Levy Armies to build units using food, but I decided against this mechanism because it does weird things to your ability to let cities grow and might often be more discouraging than interesting.

And it looks like the unhappiness is more of a problem for drafting so maybe I'll reduce that.

 

[blizzrd]

For some time I planned for Levy Armies to build units using food, but I decided against this mechanism because it does weird things to your ability to let cities grow and might often be more discouraging than interesting.

And it looks like the unhappiness is more of a problem for drafting so maybe I'll reduce that.

Could the ability to use surplus food become optional?

 

[Leoreth]

That would require a new interface option in the city screen, and I don't know if it's possible.

 

[blizzrd]

I was thinking along the lines of using the existing maximise growth button. If the button was activated under Conscription, surplus food would not be put towards building military units, whereas if it was not activated (default) surplus food would go towards building units.

Could that possibly work?

 

[Leoreth]

Good idea, that might be possible.

Edit: the problem with that is that every button also changes the selected city tiles to maximize/minimize food and you don't always want that to happen.

Here's an updated list of civics with techs and upkeep:

Spoiler :

# GOVERNMENT
1. Dynasticism (Monarchy, medium): +1 happiness per military unit (+3 max)
2. City States (Literature, high): +1 food per specialist, +100% number of cities upkeep
3. Theocracy (Theology, high): +2 happiness with state religion, unlimited priests, +2 experience with state religion
4. Autocracy (Nationalism, none): +3 happiness with barracks, can draft 1 unit, +50% great general rate, +25% espionage
5. Republic (Liberalism, high): +50% great people rate, +100% cottage growth
# ORGANIZATION:
1. Vassalage (Feudalism, medium): +2 experience, +2 happiness with Castle
2. Absolutism (Civil Service, high): +40% production and commerce in capital
3. Representation (Constitution, medium): +1 free specialist
4. Totalitarianism (Fascism, none): +1 happiness per military unit (+5 max), no city distance upkeep, unlimited spies
5. Egalitarianism (Democracy, medium): +2 happiness in largest cities, +1 production from town, unhappiness for civs without Egalitarianism
# LABOR
1. Slavery (Masonry, medium): can hurry with population, +1 commerce from plantation, slave plantation
2. Agrarianism (Calendar, low): +1 commerce from farm
3. Capitalism (Economics, medium): +2 commerce from town, +10% commerce
4. Industrialism (Industrialism, medium): +1 production from workshop, watermill, unlimited engineers, +10% production
5. Public Welfare (Communism, high): unlimited artist, scientist, merchant, +2 science per specialist, can hurry buildings with gold, double production for University, Hospital
# ECONOMY
1. Guilds (Guilds, low): +1 gold per specialist, +1 production from workshop
2. Mercantilism (Banking, high): no foreign trade routes, +25% trade route yield, +25% gold in capital, +1 commerce from workshop
3. Free Market (Corporation, medium): +1 trade route, increased corporation spread
4. Central Planning (Communism, high): +1 production per specialist, +1 food from workshop, watermill, double production for Factory, Coal Plant
5. Environmentalism (Ecology, medium): -30% pollution, +2 gold from windmill, forest preserve, +1 happiness with Public Transportation, double production for Recycling Center, Hydro Plant
# RELIGION
1. Pantheon (Polytheism, medium): +1 happiness with Pagan Temple, can construct classical wonders
2. Organized Religion (Monotheism, high): +25% building speed with state religion, allows missionaries
3. Scholasticism (Philosophy, medium): +25% great people birth with state religion
4. Fanaticism (Divine Right, low): +25% unit production with state religion, no foreign religion spread
5. Secularism (Liberalism, low): +10% research, no religious unhappiness, no state religion
# MILITARY
1. Warrior Code (Horseback Riding, none): -50% war weariness, double production for Barracks, Stable
2. Mercenaries (Currency, medium): can hurry units with gold, +1 gold upkeep per unit
3. Levy Armies (Feudalism, low): +50% improvement speed, additional free units
4. Standing Army (Military Tradition, high): +25% unit production, +2 experience
5. Conscription (Nationalism, low): can draft 2 units, +50% experience within own borders

 

[Swarbs]

Currently all civic stability effects are inactive. Since I have to write everything from scratch soon, I can actively decide to bring it back. And to be honest it never really made sense to me. Shouldn't it make your colonies happy to give them Representation?

I always thought that RFC's concept of representation was selective representation. So it implied the problem of selective representation and "rotten boroughs" where the system was tailored to keep power in the hands of the elite, like in Britain around the time of the American revolution.

I thought that too. I'd rather keep the building production stuff with Central Planning though. I could imagine a flat +10% production or +1 hammer with mines though.

Actually I thought Industrialism was quite powerful, what with the unlimited GEs - that would help late game nations like America and Brazil get the wonders they need, and in general help in the race for important wonders.

Maybe add a 15% production bonus to Factories? So they produce 25% extra hammers normally but 40% under Industrialism. That would encourage the synergy between central planning and industrialism.

I'm not sure. My general impression was that Scholasticism was already used quite often to farm GPs.

Perhaps under Scholasticism you could build missionaries with libraries or universities? That would better reflect the role of church schools in replacing monasteries as learning centres. Tho' that ability should also expire with Scientific Method to reflect the end of church education.

That would require a new interface option in the city screen, and I don't know if it's possible.

How about adding conscripted versions of the basic gunpowder units (Musketmen, Riflemen and Infantry) that can only be built when running conscription. So when running conscription you can either build the standard unit, or you can build a conscripted version which consumes food as well as production. Essentially adding three more Levy type units. That way the production poor civ has the choice of which way to build their units.

It would also avoid the problem of conscripting tanks, ships and aircraft using food!

 

[apenpaap]

True, Engineers are generally the most limited specialist in the game, with only the single Forge engineer available before the Industrial era. Getting them limitless might be quite good.