Curt's Invitation - Prove God Exists!

[Tulkas12]

We are human, and we wish to understand the condition of our fellows.

What more reason do you need? We moved on from the fancies of a god,
we want to know why other people cannot see what we see also...

But that is not the case for all atheists, just from my perosonal view.



Which god do you mean?

Humans had early notions that there was a god, and the idea has stuck.
Does not make it a human genetic imperative, though....Perhaps a deep-rooted memory.

.

Good enough for me man. A fine answer really,

Any God, I have no idea where it comes from, only that I believe there is something to all this. Why I believe this is rooted in emotion and not logic, so its not a rational feeling, but neither is the devout love I have for my wife.

 

[CurtSibling]

Yes, but if an aetheist was truly secure in their beleifs why does it bother them so? This falls into a security issue. . . I'm not gay, I have no issue with gay jokes about me. This kind of thing.

I am sure most people here are quite solid in their convictions, this is a debate
to discuss beliefs, not to sabotage them...I find it strange how you think all
debate is an all-out war where the loser is felled and annihilated...

That is not my way.

.

 

[CurtSibling]

Good enough for me man. A fine answer really,

Any God, I have no idea where it comes from, only that I believe there is something to all this. Why I believe this is rooted in emotion and not logic, so its not a rational feeling, but neither is the devout love I have for my wife.

I am delighted we can come to an accord...

Good man!

 

[Tulkas12]

That is blocky thinking...I consider JC to be an archetype...A mixture of men
from that time...Made into some kind of classical superhero for the masses.

See it as you see fit...This thread is not about him.



Consider what you wish. But the thread was readily accepted by the leading
religious people on this board, and I would react to their concerns if they had
any...And they would not hesitate to level complaints, I can assure you, sir.

I don't have any need to toy with minds, I have my own to play with.

Anything positive to add, or are you out for full discomposure today?

.

You answered me, I am happy. we already closed one thread. I say let by gones be by gones eh?

I do feel its flamatory in nature but meh, if they want to ride, let them ride.

 

[Truronian]

Yes, but if an aetheist was truly secure in their beleifs why does it bother them so? This falls into a security issue. . . I'm not gay, I have no issue with gay jokes about me. This kind of thing.

Because some people seek to subject everyone to their religious views (eg Homosexuality) by introducing them into the laws of the land.

EDIT: This is at least why I am interested.

 

[Ecclesiastes]

You know, eventually someone is going to have to establish what can be accepted as proof instead of mindlessly bickering about "prooving what proof is" and all this hoo-ha.

 

[Tulkas12]

Because some people seek to subject everyone to their religious views (eg Homosexuality) by introducing them into the laws of the land.

EDIT: This is at least why I am interested.

This is still a security thing. You are in a secular society are you not? Aren't your laws based on logic and reason generally? I know there are some exceptions even in the "enlightened" western european countires, but isn't enough that you needn't worry for most laws based on religion are trivial in nature and hardly enforced?

Fyi, if your trying to imply something by using my example of a common insecurity, you fail at life. LOL.

 

[Truronian]

This is still a security thing. You are in a secular society are you not? Aren't your laws based on logic and reason generally? I know there are some exceptions even in the "enlightened" western european countires, but isn't enough that you needn't worry for most laws based on religion are trivial in nature and hardly enforced?

Not so much in Britain, but in the US there are plenty of Christians that want rid of homosexuality because the bible says so (hence the lack of homosexual marriage).

Fyi, if your trying to imply something by using my example of a common insecurity, you fail at life. LOL.

Not quite sure what you mean here... What are you implying I was implying?

You know, eventually someone is going to have to establish what can be accepted as proof instead of mindlessly bickering about "prooving what proof is" and all this hoo-ha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_proof

 

[Tulkas12]

Not so much in Britain, but in the US there are plenty of Christians that want rid of homosexuality because the bible says so (hence the lack of homosexual marriage).



Not quite sure what you mean here... What are you implying I was implying?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_proof

Why is US common law your concern? That said, (I'll take it for just debating reasons), we are hardly trying to ban homosexual. Some have banned homosexual marriages, but imo this is a states issue. Imo most things should be states issues. I think I'm going to let this drop though good man. Its getting late here. How bout it?

 

[Truronian]

Why is US common law your concern? That said, (I'll take it for just debating reasons), we are hardly trying to ban homosexual. Some have banned homosexual marriages, but imo this is a states issue. Imo most things should be states issues. I think I'm going to let this drop though good man. Its getting late here. How bout it?

OK, sure

Why is US common law your concern?

I just don't like seeing people being persecuted against (which in my opinion homosexuals in the US (-1) are)

 

[Tulkas12]

OK, sure

Why is US common law your concern?

I just don't like seeing people being persecuted against (which in my opinion homosexuals in the US (-1) are)

Ok, now this is a big pet peeve I have with Europeans. . .

All the world's issues, all the world's troubles, and your focusing on the hypocrisies of the US?

Not that I don't feel the same way, but you focus on the US?

 

[HannibalBarka]

Trust me, you don't doubt the happenings of Jesus Christ. If you do then you are failing logic. He was a man, on this earth, he did do things.

It is not JC the man, but the JC the so called son of God that he was talking about.

I still consider the question flamatory in nature. Imo he's out to ppiss people off. Considering the average age of people here, he's also probably messing with impressionable minds. I'm sure he enjoys the last aspect of my post.

This question has been asked for centuries, even theist did think about it, I don't see why you see it as inflammatory, unless you consider the existence of God as being a taboo we should not discuss. And bringing impressionable minds like you call them to use their brain and question what they have been told isn't messing with them. you better have them brainwashed?

 

[Truronian]

Ok, now this is a big pet peeve I have with Europeans. . .

All the world's issues, all the world's troubles, and your focusing on the hypocrisies of the US?

Not that I don't feel the same way, but you focus on the US?

No. Its just that this forum contains mainly Americans. If I was logged on to a predominately British site, then I'd complain about problems at home.

 

[Tulkas12]

No. Its just that this forum contains mainly Americans. If I was logged on to a predominately British site, then I'd complain about problems at home.

Actually this forum has a fair balance of people, thats one of the reaons I enjoy it so. I really am interested in the feelings of Europeans, I just like opposing their commonly held beliefs.

 

[CurtSibling]

You know, eventually someone is going to have to establish what can be accepted as proof instead of mindlessly bickering about "prooving what proof is" and all this hoo-ha.

It will happen - I call this the 'hard bargaining' phase of the thread.

It is all relative and good!

 

[Samson]

Would you accept this as proof if you experienced this for yourself, with close enough knowledge to be sure it was not a scam?

This is a mate of mines story. I cannot remember the details, but this is close enough to give you the idea.

My mate had a dream. He related it in a church, one person interpreted it and another said it descriped his situation and gave good advice. There was say a 10^6 chance that any one person would fit the situation exactly, so a 10^4 of one person in that church. That is statistically significant.

I can get the full details if you want, but it may take a while.

 

[CurtSibling]

Would you accept this as proof if you experienced this for yourself, with close enough knowledge to be sure it was not a scam?

I think everyday happenings or good fortune cannot be analogous to a god, but I'll keep and open mind.

This is a mate of mines story. I cannot remember the details, but this is close enough to give you the idea.

My mate had a dream. He related it in a church, one person interpreted it and another said it descriped his situation and gave good advice. There was say a 10^6 chance that any one person would fit the situation exactly, so a 10^4 of one person in that church. That is statistically significant.

So a person's situation was close that of someone else's...By an extrordinary margin?

That is not really evidence of the divine, unless you count the national lottery as god's work.

It is the laws of chance, which are governed by the laws of order and natural progression.

I can get the full details if you want, but it may take a while.

As you wish, Samson...I'll keep an open mind and read it...
Depsite my words above, I'll make no opinions to I hear the
whole tale and then we can all examine the details....

 

[Samson]

I think everyday happenings or good fortune cannot be analogous to a god, but I'll keep and open mind.



So a person's situation was close that of someone else's...By an extrordinary margin?

That is not really evidence of the divine, unless you count the national lottery as god's work.

It is the laws of chance, which are governed by the laws of order and natural progression.

A persons situation was similar to one described by a dream + a third persons interpretation of that dream by an extraordinary margin.

It would be a bit different to winning the national lottery 'cos it happened to you I tried to choose the probablilities so that it would be accepted as proof in a peer reviewed jornal.

As you wish, Samson...I'll keep an open mind and read it...
Depsite my words above, I'll make no opinions to I hear the
whole tale and then we can all examine the details....

As I said, it may take a while as he does not live around here any more, I am not certain I can get hold of him. I shall be able to at some point.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

This all goes to show the value of religious threads. Some people complain that they are useless becaue they haven't gotten anyone to change religions. But as we see, some people have come to new and better understandings of religion and how it affects people, which in my view is absolutely essential to understanding mankind.

To answer Curt's most recent question: the spiritual feelings I had combined the physical sensations of warmth with the mental sensations of extreme clarity and joy. That is the extent to whic I can describe them. What leads me to believe they came from God is not just what they were but the context. I am sure that one day when our understanding of the human brain is advanced enough, you could recreate the same feelings in me by exciting certain neurons with electric impulses. But no scientist was there "zapping" me when they happened. Of course they were only happening in my mind and my body; where else can I get sensations?

And I do have some idea what mental illness feels like. I have depression and ADD, and in fact my depression has at times been so deep as to lead me to wish that there were no afterlife. I understand that perhaps what I though was God's influence may have only been my own abnormalities; but it felt quite unlike the emotions my mind usually creates.

 

[GenMarshall]

There is more to mental illness that just suffering.
Most people who are in this state are unaware that something is wrong.

I actualy do know about mental illness. First, I am actualy majoring in Psychology and I have read up on the issue of mental illness. Being religious does not cause suffering nor does it impair the person from funtioning normaly. A mental illness is a broad generic lable for a category of illnesses that include affective or emotional instability, behavioral dysregulation, and/or cognititve dysfuction or impairment. More specificly, mental illnessess include depression, generalized anxiety disorder, Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or psychological trauma/conflict origan. Mental illnesses impacts one's abiliy to work or go to school and can contribute problems in a relationship. Being religious however does not fit into any mental illness category. For example, crime is not a symptom of mental illness; however, movies oftenly portray murderers as being mentaly ill since it makes the villian more emotional, interesting, and dramatic. Just like being religious is not a symptom of mental illness.

Second, I know what mental illness feels like. I had been recently been diagnosed with Bipolar (and no its not related to being religious). Infact, I found out why I had been so suicidal before I was religious as well as gotten a diagnosis. Often times I go through a swing of extrime depression that I would think that I am worthless and just a waste of resources to the planet. However, that is unlike how I feel God, since my emotions for God in my mind is totaly unlike the emotions my Bipolar mind would create. To note, Bipolar or any mental illness can strike at anyone and does not discriminate against socieoeconomic, race, sex, religion (atheists and agnostics are not immune eather), and age. Also being religious also helps psychologicaly as well as spirituality.

Feelings of 'warmth' and 'love' are generated by the mind, and given reaction
by the body, which obeys the brain. So are you stipulating that your god
has a link to your mind...Or what part of your body?

I believe that God has touched my mind and most importantly my heart.