D-Nut Files - Term 5

[Chamnix]

Forbidden Palace is 2 culture.

 

[General_W]

Aaah! that's far more likely.

Nevermind my assumptions then.

 

[peter grimes]

That's still not the whole story:

Cultural
MIA Athens - 155 ... TKR D-Nuts Springfield - 155
Team MIA - 155 ... D-Nuts - 155

then...

Cultural
MIA Athens - 155 ... TKR D-Nuts Springfield - 157
Team MIA - 155 ... D-Nuts - 159

They increased 4 points between 88 and 89, and two of those points came from a city other than Springfield: The Forbidden Palace, likely. But Springfield itself added two other points between 88 and 89. There is something other than the Palace in Springfield, it was completed the same turn as the FP, and it earns two points.

Is temple still the only option? I can't think of any other scenario.

 

[azzaman333]

If they have construction, they might have built a colosseum. It had to be either a temple or a colosseum.

 

[peter grimes]

But if they have construction, I think they would have entered the MiddleAges. I'm pretty sure they have Lit, and we know they researched Maps themselves.

Maybe I'm missing something. Either way, they have an unhappines-modifier in their capital.

 

[fe3333au]

Could us being in anarchy and hence not producing culture be the answer ??

 

[General_W]

It appears we haven't talked with the Dnuts in 2 weeks.

We know that KISS must be talking with them about a possible alliance to counter the emerging Alliance of Science.
Seems like it would behoove us to keep the lines open with the nutters to assure them that we mean no harm, and see what we can do to keep them from throwing in their lot with KISS. (That may prove hard – but I'm sure our Foreign Ministry is up to the task!) We certainly don't want Dnuts to make peace with TNT, then Join KISS in catching us in a Pincer maneuver.

We obviously can't trade Dnuts Construction or either of our MA techs – but certainly other options are open.
If TNT and the Dnuts DO make peace – we should take advantage of that to start trading and improving relations with them with the blessing of TNT.
If TNT and Dnuts stay at war – we'll have to be much more careful… but at the very least, if we can keep them talking, the chances of unexpected attack go way down.

Just wanted to bump our relationship with Doughnuts back into our consciousness!

 

[Chamnix]

Wines for ivory? Although I'm starting to see KISS' point about not needing ivory - wines are actually almost useless to us since the luxury slider will be at 10% with or without wines.

 

[General_W]

Wines may be "almost" useless – but certainly not totally useless. The more luxuries we can secure – the better for the long term. And when we start building marketplaces, extra luxuries will help there also.

But more important than any intrinsic value of the wines – the value of a warm and trading relationship with the Dnuts is huge. We at least want the kind of relationship with Dnuts where they don't surprise attack us!
Maybe we could even sign a formal peace deal with them. Now, while they still have tension with TNT, may be the perfect time to ink such a peace deal. (Assuming of course, that we plan to play a peaceful game, or that any hostilities will be directed towards KISS.)

 

[peter grimes]

Here's one thing to throw out there:

We could possibly orchestrate a 2 vs 1 against KISS, with MIA as the PuppetMaster. It would take an incredible amount of subterfuge.

MIA's hand must never be shown to either TNT or DNUT. But the first small step in that direction would involve, at the very least, a secure peace. Everyone has boats now, and I expect to see explorers really soon. Let's not forget that.

 

[fe3333au]

Not sure if it would be possible to 'arrange' a 3 vs KISS scenario ... Nuts would surely ask how TNT tech leaped ...

Dear Doughnuts

It has been sometime since we have communicated. How goes the war with TNT? Our alpine wanderer has nothing to report regarding their troop movements.

Are you interested into trading Wine for Ivory?


Yours sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Thoughts ... I want to send soon before their turn

 

[classical_hero]

Wines may be "almost" useless – but certainly not totally useless. The more luxuries we can secure – the better for the long term. And when we start building marketplaces, extra luxuries will help there also.

That is one thing I have ben saying for a while, we really need to be improving our cities so that they make us happier and as a result we will have increased production and thus greater research capacity and greater unit support and also greater monetary rewards.

 

[General_W]

I was thinking that our note to the Dnuts should be a little bit more expansive.

Dnuts aren't dumb – they've probably figured out most of what's going on, and any holes in their understanding are probably being filled by KISS (with a heavy anti-MIA spin, no doubt)

Now is our chance to put our finger in that dike… before the dam bursts are we are flooded with a KISS/Dnuts alliance.

Here's a rough-draft of what I had in mind:

Dear Doughnuts,

First off, let us apologize for the long delay in speaking with you. We've been scrambling to take care of several potential disasters that all spung up at the same time. Don't worry – things are mostly back under control now.

We want to update you on what's going on over the sea, so that we're not keeping you in the dark. We mentioned our troubles with KISS to you in a previous chat, and we regret to inform you that things continue to deteriorate… although we're still hoping to avoid war… that hope seems increasingly like vain hope. KISS continues to back away from our peace deal, and we think that our Hoplites may be the only thing deterring a sneak attack for the time being. (as we are no longer sure how far we can trust KISS's honor)

Several turns ago – when everything started to go south with KISS, our defensive position was much weaker than it is now… and fearing for the very existence of our Empire – we scrambled to find an ally to help save us from KISS. As a team, we decided that rapid advancement to the Middle Ages was our best hope for surviving KISS – and TNT was the only team with the Tech we needed to get to the Middle Ages.

We deeply regret any false-impressions this may have given you. Let us say emphatically: We mean no harm to your people whatsoever. We explicitly told TNT that we would not be involved in any military action against you, and that our tech swap would in no-way obligate us to help them in a military manner.

It is still MIA's hope that we can become good friends and trading partners. (We don't know if those KISS snakes have been whispering in your ear – but please take what they say with a grain of salt… we know for a fact that they have been trying to spread half-truths about other teams and about MIA)

Regrettably – as part of our deal with TNT, they quite naturally required that we not trade any of their technology to you. At the time, we were in no position to bargain with them – and therefore cannot honorably trade many of our new techs with you. However – we do have a few proposals we would like to put on the table to help cement our good relationship and light a path forward for both our peoples.
(This isn't necessarily a formal proposal – just some ideas, which, if you like them also – we'll write them up all nice and formal and have a signing ceremony and celebration)

1) Peace Treaty for the Middle Ages! We propose signing a peace agreement that will last throughout the Middle Ages. It can't be canceled till both of us our out of the MA, and even then, can only be canceled with a 10 turn notice.

2) You get Pianos, we get Happy Hour! We propose trading Ivory for Wines as soon as you get a harbor up and running.

3) We are interested in trading some technology with you. As we mentioned, we have to be careful – but we have some options, depending on what you're interested in. If you're researching Monarchy – or plan to research Chivalry eventually… then we may have some options to trade tech straight across. A more likely scenario may be us selling you some of our technology on very favorable terms. As a show of good faith – we'd be willing to make you a good deal on Republic or Currency – if you're interested in either. Let us know!

Anyway – if you have any lingering concerns over what we're doing – we hope you will talk to us, and at least give us a chance to tell our side of the story. (as we will, of course, do the same for you.)

We look forward to many more years of peace and cooperation with our friends across the sea.

- Fe3333au, Foreign Minister Gloriouso Magnifico
Team MIA

P.S. We haven't sighted any TNT movement in your direction – but we'll let you know if we see or hear of anything!

Just a few other notes: For those that think I'm proposing giving away too much… If Dnuts even glance at the F-11 screen, they'll know that TNT and MIA traded to get eachother to the Middle Ages. Which is really all I reveal… the rest is just motives and explanation. (And remember – we already told Dnuts about the tensions with KISS – I tried to highlight that the tension is KISS's fault, and also portray us a now ready for KISS… so that Dnuts don't want to get involved in what KISS is telling them will be an easy war)
Also – our deal with TNT prevents us from trading Construction, Monotheism, and Feudalism – but everything else is up for grabs. (But there's no need to list for Dnuts what techs we cannot trade)

Looking forward to comments and edits!

 

[peter grimes]

Generally, I like this approach quite a lot. It is subtle in its portrayal of our situation with KISS, leaves open for interpretation our relationship with TNT, and makes DNUTs think they are going to be able to profit more than the other teams from being friends with us.

The only wording I'm uneasy about it this:

Anyway – if you have any lingering concerns over what we're doing – we hope you will talk to us...

I presume you are letting them know that they are welcome to ask about events in our land?

Anyway, we're happy to keep you up to date on the events on this side of the pond, so feel free to approach us with any questions or concerns. We promise to be more vociferous now that our crises have been averted. And if KISS is saying things that are painting a strange picture (as they have done with TNT), we hope you will ask us about it. We, of course, will do the same for you.

That's a bit lengthy and cumbersome, but it avoids an alternate reading of the original: ...if you have any concerns about our machinations, feel free to ask....

 

[Chamnix]

I love the tone and most of the details, but this is too much:

1) Peace Treaty for the Middle Ages! We propose signing a peace agreement that will last throughout the Middle Ages. It can't be canceled till both of us our out of the MA, and even then, can only be canceled with a 10 turn notice.

I know we are concerned about a KISS/Donuts double team, but if Donuts overruns TNT and completely controls their continent, then KISSMIA will have to attack before the Donuts get Steam Power.

 

[General_W]

Good edit Peter!
I like your change. I don't think it's overly cumbersome, and it's more important to be clear anyway.

@Chamnix: You may be right. What do you propose instead? 20 turns guaranteed and then a 10 turn cancel policy from there?

 

[Chamnix]

I know we want to be safe, but I'm having a hard time imagining Donuts attacking us. What would it take for them to do that?

1. Donuts conquers TNT completely - I hope KISS will realize that Donuts are the bigger threat and will combine with MIA to take them on. If not, then I don't think peace with Donuts will help us - Donuts will run away with the game in any case.

2. Donuts and TNT stay at war with neither winning decisively - Donuts would not open up a second front for themselves - if they knew they had spare troops, they would use them to eliminate TNT.

3. Donuts and TNT agree to peace - this is the only danger, but even still, would Donuts combine with KISS to attack us knowing that TNT may backstab them while their troops are here, and realizing that KISS is likely to gain more from the war against MIA and will probably have no problem eliminating Donuts from the Green Contintent once MIA is gone?

I have a very hard time imagining Donuts attacking us. On the other hand, I don't think it is that farfetched for KISS to realize attacking MIA is not good for KISS and signing a longer term peace deal so we can combine on Donuts in which case we don't want a peace deal with Donuts at all.

I don't know - a short deal (like 20+10) is probably reasonably safe because we probably won't want to attack within 30 turns, but having a deal then cancelling it telegraphs our intentions which isn't good either.

 

[peter grimes]

Hmmmm - Interesting arguments, indeed.

But if we execute a wines for ivory trade, we will have a minimum 20 turns peace, after which we could opaquely non renew, and this wouldn't signal any ulterior intentions.

Right now I'm thinking that it would be better to push for a luxury trade, and not push for a formal peace agreement. But I could be swayed, with the proper rhetoric

 

[General_W]

I hear what you're saying Chamnix – but I think there's another layer to this that we shouldn't ignore.

I agree with points 1 and 2 – we part paths a bit on #3….

3. Donuts and TNT agree to peace - this is the only danger, but even still, would Donuts combine with KISS to attack us knowing that TNT may backstab them while their troops are here, and realizing that KISS is likely to gain more from the war against MIA and will probably have no problem eliminating Donuts from the Green Continent once MIA is gone?

While I agree that attacking us isn't the smartest thing for Dnuts to do, I don't share your confidence that we're safe from them doing it. Dnuts recognize the problems of fighting TNT in the jungles when their UU's strength is it's 2 moves. They also know that they are a ways behind TNT in Technology now (thanks to us) – and I'm thinking a long war with TNT is becoming less and less appealing to the Nuts as time goes by.

Now – they will probably never trust TNT enough to launch a full-scale invasion of our land while TNT still lives, but with a solid peace deal in place with TNT, and with promises of all kinds of technology goodness from KISS – I think a modest invasion is a distinct possibility. We're close at hand for an attack – our core will be lightly defended due to border tensions with KISS, and their Mounted Warriors will be far more effective on our grassland plains than in the Jungle to their north. The promise of a several techs from KISS and the prospect of capturing a foothold on our land might be just the thing that Dnuts would consider… especially if they believe we are collaborating with their enemy, TNT.

I still don't think the attack would be a good move for them – but I can easily imagine them doing it. I've seen humans do far dumber things.

ALSO – aside from avoiding fighting a two-front war, we also need to consider that if we can sell/trade Republic and Currency to Dnuts – then we can lock KISS out of a potential trading partner… and thus keeping KISS behind us in technology for even longer. Sure – we don't need a peace deal to trade with Dnuts – but a solid peace deal will go a long ways, psychologically, towards making us a friendlier and safer trading partner for the Nuts.

ALSO – I still see our best case scenario for an endgame as triangulating our way to massive economic and scientific dominance… and the more peaceful the world is, the better for us. (once we achieve dominance, I don't know if we go on the attack, or try a spaceship… but it's the same either way.) We need KISS to be weak, TNT and Dnuts to be a stalemate, and everyone at peace with us. If we sign a peace deal with Dnuts, then we will have formal peace deal with every civ… even if it's short lived thanks to KISS.

Anyway – I'm just concerned that without a solid offer of peace, all our swelling words about "meaning you no harm" ring rather hollow, and Dnuts won't be impressed.

Anyone buying what I'm selling?

 

[fe3333au]

I like the idea of the letter Gen_W ... could you post an updated editted version ...


First viewing (and I am tired) was good ... not sure about getting a peace treaty ... I doubt they will go for it ... it constricts their options too much

But really like the explaination of what's occured