[GS] Dams/Flooding video

[Boris Gudenuf]

Wish they did a little bit more...Even protecting against drought, Aquaducts are the biggest waste of space on the map if you're not Rome, Khmer, or now Inca.

This is why I've argued that Aqueducts should be a Linear Improvement like the Great Wall, but available to every Civ: one end has to be in a tile next to a City Center, the other end - any number of tiles away - at a 'water source' which could be a Mountain (stream), River, Lake, Oasis or now, Dam/Reservoir. Treat them like roads, so that other Improvements (but not Districts) could be built in the same tile, make them Pillagable, so that they could leave your city vulnerable to catastrophic water loss if not protected or immediately Repaired.
In addition, each tile the Aqueduct passes through could now be treated as a Water Source, so you could 'use' the aqueduct to provide extra Food per tile from Irrigation waters from the 'duct.

Providing Fresh, Clean Water should provide at least 1 Amenity to the city, or maybe 1 Amenity per X Population, in addition to the Housing from Water.

Saves us all a District spot on the map, makes Aqueducts either slightly more useful or absolutely indispensable depending on your city location - as they were and are in reality: Los Angeles would not exist today without Mulholland's water supply system, which is essentially a modern 'aqueduct' of artificial river channels

 

[DefiantMars]

Am I the only one complaining about the artstyle of the dam? Like the docks they look needlessly modern.

I agree somewhat. The Dams (not to mention the automatic canals in city centers) do look a bit too clean for the older eras, in my opinion. It would be more work, but having more than one model would be nice.

Well, polders have to be next to three land tiles. If coastal land starts turning to water, stands to reason you lose polders attached to them. Could you go send out builders to build new polders? Well, if there's three land tiles still available, I guess so. Still seems like a net loss to me on an already disappointing UI.

Of course, it's possible they'll beef up polders by having them prevent loss to sea levels. That would give them a boost.

The UI says "Must be built on Coast or Lake tiles with at least three adjacent land tiles." I wouldn't think the the ones you built would be removed if sea levels rise. Pillaged maybe, but outright removing them doesn't sound like fun to me.

Wish they did a little bit more...Even protecting against drought, Aquaducts are the biggest waste of space on the map if you're not Rome, Khmer, or now Inca.

I share your sentiments, Zaarin. Aqueducts feel so situational, I am becoming increasingly convinced that the district should be given a building or two somewhere down the tech/civics tree. Some kind of upgrade that allows it to provide more than housing.

At least the Inca seem like they might be able to leverage some value out of them with their Terrace Farms.

 

[steveg700]

The UI says "Must be built on Coast or Lake tiles with at least three adjacent land tiles." I wouldn't think the the ones you built would be removed if sea levels rise. Pillaged maybe, but outright removing them doesn't sound like fun to me.

Welp, I reckon it will be about as fun as anyone will have losing a tile to sea level changes.

What do you guys imagine happening here? Sea levels rise, the land tiles around the polder turn to water, and there's a just polder standing there in the ocean?

 

[steveg700]

Wish they did a little bit more...Even protecting against drought, Aquaducts are the biggest waste of space on the map if you're not Rome, Khmer, or now Inca.

Well, I think they're worthwhile around some dry mountainous terrain. I think they're fine for what they do in those situations, but I wouldn't mind a bit of food or just a growth % boost. Wish I could buy'em with gold.

 

[Zaarin]

Well, I think they're worthwhile around some dry mountainous terrain. I think they're fine for what they do in those situations, but I wouldn't mind a bit of food or just a growth % boost. Wish I could buy'em with gold.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've settled a city without freshwater, so...

 

[Cagarustus]

At least we know that Firaxis is back on line. More than likely there’ll be a reveal next week.

 

[DefiantMars]

Welp, I reckon it will be about as fun as anyone will have losing a tile to sea level changes.

What do you guys imagine happening here? Sea levels rise, the land tiles around the polder turn to water, and there's a just polder standing there in the ocean?

If all of its adjacent land tiles get swallowed by the sea at the same time, then sure the Polder definitely should go away. But if only one tile goes away it makes more sense to me that you simply lose the ability to build a Polder on that tile in the future. From what I understand, the way Civ works is anything built on a tile will stay on that tile until removed by some external method. If you harvest a Fish or Crab resource next to an already constructed Fishery improvement using the Liang's Aquaculture ability, the Fisheries don't just disappear do they?

I imagine that the Netherlands would be BETTER at handling the rising sea levels, not worse. it just seems dumb to devalue the Netherland's Unique Infrastructure when the whole point of a Polder is to create artificial land and keep it from the sea. Coastal cities are already suboptimal compared to inland cities for the most part, with a mechanic being added that so far seems to make Coastal cities even more of a risky proposition...

As I said previously, I think it would be okay to have the tile get Pillaged if one or more of its adjacent land tiles goes away. That seems reasonable to me; they can repair the tile, maybe even fill in the newly submerged tile with a totally different Polder. I think it that the Dutch should be allowed to have fun with its UI.

 

[Sostratus]

Do not forget that in the Industrial/ Modern era you can unlock the hydroelectric station for the Dam district to generate clean power.

This and the housing is why i think dams will be very very sought after. They don't prevent fertility from floods, they only reduce it. Power is almost guaranteed to be at a premium

What do you guys imagine happening here? Sea levels rise, the land tiles around the polder turn to water, and there's a just polder standing there in the ocean?

This is how the game works now, so... probably. I mean they still haven't touched Kongo's sword UU after they buffed base swords shortly after release.

If you harvest a Fish or Crab resource next to an already constructed Fishery improvement using the Liang's Aquaculture ability, the Fisheries don't just disappear do they?

You can put fisheries on any coast, but you have to have a resource to place a kampung. Things like resorts etc also don't go away if you build mines next to them to reduce their appeal to average.

The only thing I want to know if is they are going to allow you to build polders on submerged tiles (all submerged tiles? Still need the 3 land req? Will submerged land be marked different from coast and therefore, no polders?) because if you can, and sea level rise is one-two tiles here and there at a time, a dutch play with a quick builder force could potentially turn half their country into one big sea of polders with proper coal burning. everytime a tile floods just drop a new polder. I personally think polders are too restricted as is- especially that garbage with mountains not counting. Let's not forget that hurricanes can drop more yields on your sea tiles (polders) too. Take that, landlubbers!

 

[steveg700]

From what I understand, the way Civ works is anything built on a tile will stay on that tile until removed by some external method. If you harvest a Fish or Crab resource next to an already constructed Fishery improvement using the Liang's Aquaculture ability, the Fisheries don't just disappear do they?

Current accepted notions are going to be somewhat upset by Gathering Storm. We know disasters will be able to destroy resources, as we've seen what a volcanic eruption can do.

Do you think rising sea levels will only cause unimproved land tiles to turn to water? If I can lose my mine by the sea, I don't find it that unthinkable that a polder could get destroyed just the same. If so, then the Netherlands

Then again, like I said, since it's a form of dam, perhaps they'll let a polder act as a buffer against sea levels.

 

[Sostratus]

Do you think rising sea levels will only cause unimproved land tiles to turn to water? If I can lose my mine by the sea, I don't find it that unthinkable that a polder could get destroyed just the same.

You can only build polders on coast tiles as it is. Sea level rise only affects land tiles. So tiles which contain polders will never ever be affected by the sea level rise... because they are already sea.
Basically land tiles flood in stages- each has some "elevation" number (like 3 meters) and the global warming screen shows that the sea rise has risen X meters from its original level. First a tile becomes submerged, and if you build a flood barrier you can save it, but eventually it becomes permanently submerged (likely if the water gets even deeper) and you cannot save it anymore. We have no idea what the implications are for eg naval unit maneuvering on those tiles.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've settled a city without freshwater, so...

The AI builds cities away from freshwater. I've played domination games where I find myself building a few Aqueducts.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Cruial in early-game?
No. Dams cost so high that it can rarely be built quickly in early game.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The England will be a Dam master, since its Dam costs 1/4 of other Civs' due to military engineer bonus. (106 Prod is reasonable and a good deal for the Dam bonus I guess, but 425 certainly not.)

The real England UD will be Dam, instead of RNDY.

But, Britain is not famous of its Dam in the real world, is it?

BTW, Aztec Dam is also a good deal.

Really hope the Civ4 wonder "three gorges dam" being back, must be built next to a Dam with Hydro plant and a river, it's ability can be provide Dam bonus and unlimited free power, as well as +4 production and +2 yields for power-based buildings, for all cities.

 

[steveg700]

You can only build polders on coast tiles as it is. Sea level rise only affects land tiles. So tiles which contain polders will never ever be affected by the sea level rise... because they are already sea.

There's no need to explain this, because we're already past that point of the discussion. I've asked folks what they think is going to happen, and what they apparently think is you can have is free-standing polder surrounded by nothing but water.

Okay, well, that'd be kinda dumb and a little sloppy, and maybe it will just be dumb and sloppy.. On the other hand, it's not analogous to building a mine next to a seaside resort. The possibility that the dev's aren't going to have polders, visibly designed to fit into a pocket of land, just sitting nonsensically in the ocean by themselves, should not be so hard to accept.

 

[bbbt]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've settled a city without freshwater, so...

Same. I think it's sort of the nature of the map scale. It's rarely an area that far from a river or lake.

If anything is on my Civ 7 wish list, it's 2-3x ing the map scale. Make 1UPT log jam a tgith of the past, allow navigable rivers, broader expanses of "arid" land, more distinct map and elevation levels. Allow them to scale movement better for a slowly revealing ancient exploration phase through World War conquest speeds in the modern era.

Granted on the flip side would be horriffic turn times if something else didnt give.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

This got me thinking......could we ever have Dam-busters.....not jusy spies destroying dams?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Who's that?

View attachment 513960

Aragorn, son of Arathorn?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Damn

Seems like smaller lakes will increase quite a lot in value

Wonderful pun .

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This got me thinking......could we ever have Dam-busters.....not jusy spies destroying dams?

Well, bombers can pillage districts, even if they don't do the cool low-level attack with a counterspun bomb, they should be able to wreck it, and maybe cause a flood.

 

[DefiantMars]

Okay, well, that'd be kinda dumb, and maybe it will just be dumb, but it's not analogous to building a mine next to a seaside resort. I don't know the possibility that the dev's aren't going to have polders, visibly designed to fit into a pocket of land, just sitting nonsensically in the ocean by themselves, is so quick to be rejected.

Personally, I'm rejecting the notion because it would lead to frustrating gameplay moments, would be inconsistent with how improvements have been handled in the past, and would further weaken an already suboptimal gameplay strategy.

As a video game, having artificial land out in the middle of the ocean which used to be coastal is not something that will break my immersion any more than dudes summoning lightning storms as they preach about their faith... Civ's scale is already super fuzzy and many an artistic liberty has been made for the sake of visual or mechanical design.

As far as I am aware, the game doesn't continue to check your improvements to make sure that initial requirements needed are still valid; that is why improvements stay and changing that just for polders seems like a bunch of work for no real reason. Also, having multiple turns of production vanish into the ether because the AI halfway around the world is burning fossil fuels like its going out of style, sounds like a very fast way to aggravate players.

So... yes, Civ can be dumb at times. In this case, I think letting the Dutch maintain a functional UI is more important than accurately replicating the destructive effects of sea level rise. I do like the idea you posted of of Polders providing a level of resistance to rising seas. Internally adding non-existent elevation to adjacent land tiles for example would be handy, even more so if they can build polders in tiles that have flooded fully. Allow the Netherlands to slow down the effects of the rising sea without things being too silly.

This got me thinking......could we ever have Dam-busters.....not jusy spies destroying dams?

Can't a Bomber just pillage the Dam on its own power? If its a district, I imagine it would follow the same rules as other districts.