Dancing Hoskuld's tasks

[Thunderbrd]

I am afraid your post completely confused me. It may just be a lack of coffee on my side.

From mods

• BLWO - diplomat line of units
• Great Statesman mod - Great Statesman unit, Lawyer population specialist, Settled Great Statesman specialist
• Lawyer mod - Lawyer unit
• ???? - Judge and Sheriff units no idea. Also no idea what they are going to be used for. Mind you I always think Robin Hood when I hear Sheriff not US.

Lawyer the unit - is a special unit for counter corporations work. It also does reduce crime in the plot it is in.

Diplomat line of units - not implemented yet does diplomatic stuff with IP, barbarians and other nations.

Lawyer the population specialist - does not exist yet but from the Great Statesman mod can be assigned when you have buildings. Not much set up but should be anti-crime.

Great Statesman the unit - major diplomat!

Settled Great Statesman - can't remember at the moment.

What I've identified is that we'll be needing a specialist that supports crime units without being a major pain in the butt for your city. A specialist that offers an XP to all crime units trained in that city. I can see how a Lawyer can reduce crime a little (not as much as a Detective perhaps) while at the same time can add XP to criminal units trained there, since the Lawyer can be leveraged to entrap skilled criminals into service for the state and defense attorneys are able to get up and coming criminals with potential released back into the population while at the same time, the prosecutors put down the most dangerous ones that have no further use to society. At the same time, I think Lawyers clog up an already bureaucratic system and thus cost the city more money as a downside. They would not bring in added espionage really, but the Detective might.

See, what I'm finding is that Combat Class wise, we have 5 Major categories of trainable units:

• Combatant ('Military')
• Civilian
• Criminal
• Explorer (Hunters and Scout types)
• Animals

I'm looking at limiting the XP benefits given out by a settled GG (Great Military Instructor) to Combatants alone and that's going to leave the Civilian, Criminal, and Explorer lines requiring an almost equally valid source of XP gain.

Thus I'm suggesting that we have the following scheme:

• Military Instructors and Great Military Instructors: +XP for Combatants
• Citizens and Great Citizens: +XP for Civilian Units
• Lawyers & Great Lawyers: +XP for Criminals
• An inordinate amount of buildings constructed from subdued animals and the planned Great Hunter: +XP for Explorers
• Animal Trainers and Great Animal Trainers: +XP for Animals

All of these categories have many sub-divisions, and for most of the Civilian types like Health Care, Law Enforcement, Traders etc... would gain XP from other specialist types as well, those that correspond to similar job descriptions.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am afraid your post completely confused me. It may just be a lack of coffee on my side.

From mods

• BLWO - diplomat line of units
• Great Statesman mod - Great Statesman unit, Lawyer population specialist, Settled Great Statesman specialist
• Lawyer mod - Lawyer unit
• ???? - Judge and Sheriff units no idea. Also no idea what they are going to be used for. Mind you I always think Robin Hood when I hear Sheriff not US.

Lawyer the unit - is a special unit for counter corporations work. It also does reduce crime in the plot it is in.

Diplomat line of units - not implemented yet does diplomatic stuff with IP, barbarians and other nations.

Lawyer the population specialist - does not exist yet but from the Great Statesman mod can be assigned when you have buildings. Not much set up but should be anti-crime.

Great Statesman the unit - major diplomat!

Settled Great Statesman - can't remember at the moment.

Sounds cool. Glad I named my new unit a "Judge" and not a "Lawyer". Note that the Judge is used to pass "Ordinances" (limit 5 units at a time). I don't know what else it should do but if you have some ideas let me know. Since we can always merge our ideas.

As for a Sheriff it is currently an Industrial Era Police line unit. More "Cowboy" less "Nottingham".

 

[strategyonly]

Sounds cool. Glad I named my new unit a "Judge" and not a "Lawyer". Note that the Judge is used to pass "Ordinances" (limit 5 units at a time). I don't know what else it should do but if you have some ideas let me know. Since we can always merge our ideas.

As for a Sheriff it is currently an Industrial Era Police line unit. More "Cowboy" less "Nottingham".

Yeah i dont know on the Judge either but it needs alot more, otherwise its really a useless unit.
Also i have this if needed?? Or do we have this already? I need this for a Western thing i am doing, i guess??

 

[Taxman66]

Looks like an advanced criminal unit, I'd suggest 'Rustler'

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah i dont know on the Judge either but it needs alot more, otherwise its really a useless unit.
Also i have this if needed?? Or do we have this already? I need this for a Western thing i am doing, i guess??

Oooh that's cool! Do we have a 'good' image for the Outlaw yet? Also, please keep your eye out for a Shotgunner unit art from around that era...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Looks like an advanced criminal unit, I'd suggest 'Rustler'

but we already have an Outlaw and Sharpshooter units during this period.

For reference we have ...

Police Line = Sheriff (25)
Thief Line = Sharpshooter (15)
Mounted Mercenary Line = Outlaw (29)

I suppose we could add a "Rustler" in the Infantry Mercenary Line. Thus an wild west equivalent of a Bandit Footpad.

Oooh that's cool! Do we have a 'good' image for the Outlaw yet? Also, please keep your eye out for a Shotgunner unit art from around that era...

What's wrong with the unit art we have for the Outlaw and Sharpshooter?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I haven't seen them recently. So my idea about them is probably out of date anyhow.

And I also don't see any reason for Sharpshooters to be Criminals. I realize Assassins upgrade into them, but shouldn't that be where there's a split? Assassins upgrade to EITHER Sharpshooters (and become military units rather than criminals, utilizing their skills of stealth to serve society) OR Outlaws (where they stay pretty much working on their own under some loose state guidance). If we need another CC to represent the Military Stealth units, perhaps that could be meaningful at this stage. Maybe... UNITCLASS_STRIKETEAM ?


Oh... and that unit art could be used for a Bounty Hunter, a Law Enforcement/Criminal blend unit that actively hunts down Outlaws which was the sort of thing we saw a lot of in that era (if you've seen Django, you get my drift. ) And perhaps another potential upgrade for Assassins (and Law Enforcement units of that era as well...)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Looks like an advanced criminal unit, I'd suggest 'Rustler'

Available at an Ancient era domestication tech. people have been "duffing" others animals since way back. In some cultures it was a right of passage.

 

[Praetyre]

While I like the fundamental concept of a Judge unit, having him pass ordinances seems a tad odd. Maybe things are different outside of the United States, Britain and New Zealand, but the "Ordinances" mentioned seem like bylaws passed by city councils (though i think having national wonders to represent a federal/national level law would be a very good idea); judges don't make law (well, in theory. The recent history of the United States clouds matters...), they interpret it; they could at most strike down or uphold a law depending on jurisdiction (in both the office and international comparison sense). The only way I can see them making law outside of those US cases (and even that is more like making up weird interpretations of the Constitution, such as that the "equal protection" clause forbids the prohibition of same sex marriage or the myriad things spun off the "general welfare" and, to an even greater extent, "interstate commerce" clauses) is in their function as legal scholars recommending paths for sovereigns or legislators.

 

[Maxima7]

The only way I can see them making law outside of those US cases (and even that is more like making up weird interpretations of the Constitution, such as that the "equal protection" clause forbids the prohibition of same sex marriage

How is that weird?

 

[Praetyre]

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It is weird because nothing except the "privileges and immunities" bit can be even remotely relevant to discussion of such laws, and because there is not the slightest chance in hell any of the people who authored it could have conceived of the notion of same sex marriage, and even if they could, they would have found it as unthinkable as declaring Naghualism the state religion of Texas would be today, and because even the two bits I've quoted have to be tortured beyond recognition to apply them to that case. This is off topic, though; if you wish to discuss the matter further, best you'd PM me and keep this thread clear of errata.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I haven't seen them recently. So my idea about them is probably out of date anyhow.

Here they are. However I thought the Outlaw had a different 3D model. Doesn't look too much like a cowboy.

And I also don't see any reason for Sharpshooters to be Criminals. I realize Assassins upgrade into them, but shouldn't that be where there's a split? Assassins upgrade to EITHER Sharpshooters (and become military units rather than criminals, utilizing their skills of stealth to serve society) OR Outlaws (where they stay pretty much working on their own under some loose state guidance). If we need another CC to represent the Military Stealth units, perhaps that could be meaningful at this stage. Maybe... UNITCLASS_STRIKETEAM ?

Its because the theif line eventually becomes snipers. Note that the snipers do not give crime like thieves do. Perhaps the Sharpshooter should not either.

 

[Hydromancerx]

While I like the fundamental concept of a Judge unit, having him pass ordinances seems a tad odd. Maybe things are different outside of the United States, Britain and New Zealand, but the "Ordinances" mentioned seem like bylaws passed by city councils (though i think having national wonders to represent a federal/national level law would be a very good idea); judges don't make law (well, in theory. The recent history of the United States clouds matters...), they interpret it; they could at most strike down or uphold a law depending on jurisdiction (in both the office and international comparison sense). The only way I can see them making law outside of those US cases (and even that is more like making up weird interpretations of the Constitution, such as that the "equal protection" clause forbids the prohibition of same sex marriage or the myriad things spun off the "general welfare" and, to an even greater extent, "interstate commerce" clauses) is in their function as legal scholars recommending paths for sovereigns or legislators.

It was hard to name a unit that could make ordinances and exist at the time of Code of Laws and have a graphic for it. Lawyers are already going to be used by DH and what would a Council Member look like?

In short I needed a unit that could make the pseudo-buildings and that's the best I could come up with, with the resources we have.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Lawyer unit is available late game but it's use could be extended back in time if we want. It's only purpose is the removal of all corporations in a city.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The Lawyer unit is available late game but it's use could be extended back in time if we want. It's only purpose is the removal of all corporations in a city.

Naw it looks like a modern unit. Its fine to stay as a modern unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Its because the theif line eventually becomes snipers. Note that the snipers do not give crime like thieves do. Perhaps the Sharpshooter should not either.

Well... I realize that. My suggestion is that we allow criminals to split off there, giving them the option to become a more military functioning unit or stay as criminals. Outlaws don't go on to become sharpshooters or snipers do they? They'd become mobsters, and need some more to progress into thereafter.

ugh... hijacking poor DH's thread again. lol

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Thief/Sniper
Thief -> Rogue -> Assassin -> Sharpshooter -> Sniper -> Modern Sniper -> Hi-Tech Sniper

Mercenary Mounted/Wheeled
Bandit Rider -> Highwayman -> Outlaw -> Mobster Car

We also have the Bandit Footpad which upgrades to a musketman. And a Guerrilla that upgrades into a Modern Sniper

I think we should have a new line like this ...

Mercenary Melee/Gun
Bandit Footpad -> Rustler -> Guerrilla

Possibly having more types of units between.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I understand our current layout. What I don't like about it is that the Thief line is fated to leave the Criminal CC. I don't mind that it CAN, (in fact I like that) just have a disagreement that it MUST. Thus I would suggest that either the Assassin may continue into the Sharpshooter OR upgrade to an Outlaw and continue as a criminal, or maybe something entirely new, like perhaps:

Thief/Sniper
Thief -> Rogue -> Assassin -> Sharpshooter -> Sniper -> Modern Sniper -> Hi-Tech Sniper

OR
Thief -> Rogue -> Assassin -> Ninja -> Yakuza -> Cyber Ninja

OR
Thief -> Rogue -> Henchman -> Thug -> Strongarm -> Gangster -> Murderer

Mercenary Mounted/Wheeled
Bandit Rider -> Highwayman -> Outlaw -> Mobster Car

Ok, makes sense (but we need more past the Mobster Car I think... Perhaps:

Mobster Car -> Getaway Driver -> Smuggler -> ?

Mercenary Melee/Gun
Bandit Footpad -> Rustler -> Guerrilla

This line would also then suffer from evolving into military and out of Criminal unless we want the Guerrilla to continue to be a Criminal unit, which I could see it being. We would want to look at ways to continue the line though... Terrorists perhaps?

 

[Hydromancerx]

1a. Hmm. I like some of you ideas there. Note we also have some that merge into the line too such as the Ambusher, Hassassin, etc.

1b. I was going to have a Ninja as a culture unit for a Japanese dynasty culture. However I could always call it like the name of the culture Ninja.

2. Yeah they would need upgrades. I just did not figure all that out yet. Remember most of modern and after are missing units.

3. I forget if there is a limit on them. But they do produce crime. The balance part is they need crime buildings to make them and they make crime themselves. The advantage is they are generally stronger than their counterparts and do not require the resources their counterparts do. We assume they got their own weapons from the black market.

4. Which brings me to another subject. I was thinking perhaps we should have some black market buildings. Such as supplying Iron Wares or Firearms. These buildings would be extremely costly and create lots of crime, and instability. However I wonder if its not enough to basically get a free strategic resource.

What do you think?

 

[strategyonly]

Unless DH says its ok to use this thread, how about moving the above referenced stuff, what say you DH??