Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

[Leoreth]

No. You insinuated it would be too hard to understand that more culture provides more science. That is absurd and neither mine nor Tigranes' argument. So I am left to assume that you either did not read our actual points or are deliberately strawmanning what we are saying. The latter is a repeated pattern of how you argue on this page and I have little patience for it anymore. So either make a decent argument or expect a flippant response.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

You insinuated it would be too hard to understand that more culture provides more science. That is absurd and neither mine nor Tigranes' argument.

In effect that was his argument though:

I hope because we want to keep it relatively simple -- there are so many rules and caveats that it is impossible to navigate through the features sometimes! Game is getting too complicated.

The additional argument you brought up was that +50% is a decent enough effect by itself, and I have not touched on that nor do I plan to.

 

[Leoreth]

No, it wasn't. The argument is that you want to keep things simple overall. Many things that are easily understood in isolation can become complicated in combination. Anything that adds complexity to one element adds complexity to the whole. Focusing only on the changed element and arguing that it remains simple enough to understand on its own is not addressing the argument. Missing that distinction would be alright, phrasing it in such a condescending way really wasn't.

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Some observations from recent games (git-version pre 15.01.18 patch):

Byzantium starts with only outdated (archers, spearmen) units. Intended? (All updated would be too strong, I think.)


Great Britain often collapses after conquering India.

Atztecs get killed by natives very early.

France and GB lose their NA colonies to natives.

-> NA barb land before the USA spawn. The NA natives are way too strong. They are better than european units of the time. They should be mobile and hard to kill in woodland (so they can harass improvements and slow development), but not strong enough to capture cities with arquebusiers and the like. (More like str 5/6 + 50% in woods). I am no expert, but I don't think natives ever conquered major european settlements in NA.


France collapses without clear reasons. (lost colonies?, happiness, see below)

Unhappiness mali are kept for a long time. In my last game as Turkey I had happiness mali till the end, even all cities were extremly happy. I had happiness issues only in the early conquest period. Many turns ago.

 

[Rodnok]

Byzantium starts with only outdated (archers, spearmen) units. Intended? (All updated would be too strong, I think.)

Well, the scenario starts with a message that says your military is in a bad shape after the death of Justinian, if I remember correctly . Actually it is not that hard. Even if you refuse the flip to Arabs, then you lose these outdated units mostly and you can defend the most of the cities if not all. I forced them to peace in two games after conquering their city. So I wouldn't change this.
The correct approach however (see gameplay guides) is to accept the flip, conquer Italy, build cataphracts and that is definitely doable. Even the outdated units are still useful. I followed the guide and got bored with the game somewhat when even the Seljuks were pretty weak (Emperor level). They teleported two stacks to Anatolia. One I killed with my offensive units, the second one killed itself on a city where I moved the defensive units.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the bad shape of their military is intentional.

 

[Tigranes]

Is it just me who has a feeling that Theatre became the most important building in the game? Cheaper than Amphitheater but twice as effective, plus 25% of culture AND you can hire an Artist! I know some people felt akward to see how culture slider could make population happy without any cultural building, but at least universally all rules can appease their subjects by financing local cultural activities. But not all the societies nesecerally developed specific reliance on drama and theater plays . Culture slider is more universal than theater, free giveaways of bread or alms can fit into use of slider, but in medieval times clirics would frown upon actors and plays.

 

[1SDANi]

Is it just me who has a feeling that Theatre became the most important building in the game? Cheaper than Amphitheater but twice as effective, plus 25% of culture! I know some people felt akward to see how culture slider could make population happy without any cultural building, but at least universally all rules can appease their subjects by financing local cultural activities. But not all the societies nesecerally developed specific reliance on drama and theater plays . Culture slider is more universal than theater, free giveaways of bread or alms can fit into use of slider, but in medieval times clirics would frown upon actors and plays.

I like it honestly. Theatre used to be the go to in every city I built. It cost the same amount as monuments and gave specialists in addition to 2 culture. Now it gives 25% culture for the same cost, making it less useful for new cities without making it a bad buildinkg, and Weaver, which used to only be for resource happiness or high culture cities, is now a higher cost specialist version of monuments.

 

[Steb]

Yeah, changing the theater is definitely one of the changes that has affected my gameplay the most. Now I actually need to think about what to build in a newly acquired city. It's a good change. Though I feel monuments should be cheaper than theaters.

 

[1SDANi]

Yeah, changing the theater is definitely one of the changes that has affected my gameplay the most. Now I actually need to think about what to build in a newly acquired city. It's a good change. Though I feel monuments should be cheaper than theaters.

But still more expensive than Shrines

 

[Publicola]

I just got my new laptop up and running, and got my Civ IV and BTS installed and updated. Now I just need the full 1.15 version, and I can start playing the updated mod. Nice timing!

 

[Leoreth]

Is it just me who has a feeling that Theatre became the most important building in the game? Cheaper than Amphitheater but twice as effective, plus 25% of culture AND you can hire an Artist! I know some people felt akward to see how culture slider could make population happy without any cultural building, but at least universally all rules can appease their subjects by financing local cultural activities. But not all the societies nesecerally developed specific reliance on drama and theater plays . Culture slider is more universal than theater, free giveaways of bread or alms can fit into use of slider, but in medieval times clirics would frown upon actors and plays.

I like it honestly. Theatre used to be the go to in every city I built. It cost the same amount as monuments and gave specialists in addition to 2 culture. Now it gives 25% culture for the same cost, making it less useful for new cities without making it a bad buildinkg, and Weaver, which used to only be for resource happiness or high culture cities, is now a higher cost specialist version of monuments.

Yeah, changing the theater is definitely one of the changes that has affected my gameplay the most. Now I actually need to think about what to build in a newly acquired city. It's a good change. Though I feel monuments should be cheaper than theaters.

I wonder if the Theatre is a bit too good now for its cost. I guess from the fluff happiness per culture level should be at the Amphitheatre as that is where mass entertainment comes from, maybe I should emphasise this by moving the Theatre happiness effect to a later building. I see the Theatre more as a culture oriented than a happiness oriented building.

I agree about the relative Monument cost though.

 

[Tigranes]

I wonder if the Theatre is a bit too good now for its cost. I guess from the fluff happiness per culture level should be at the Amphitheatre as that is where mass entertainment comes from, maybe I should emphasise this by moving the Theatre happiness effect to a later building. I see the Theatre more as a culture oriented than a happiness oriented building.

I agree about the relative Monument cost though.

Completely agree about Amphitheatre, but why to move basic +1 per 10% to any building? Rulers don't need buildings to ease taxes, give away alms, bread, and organize any other population appeasing measures. Or in modern days to invest in cultural programs and festivals. Moving culture slider effectively represents all those activities. When you have 10% -- you effectively spending 10% of your state revenues for the various benefits of your people. Any building would make it too specific.

 

[1SDANi]

Completely agree about Amphitheatre, but why to move basic +1 per 10% to any building? Rulers don't need buildings to ease taxes, give away alms, bread, and organize any other population appeasing measures. Or in modern days to invest in cultural programs and festivals. Moving culture slider effectively represents all those activities. When you have 10% -- you effectively spending 10% of your state revenues for the various benefits of your people. Any building would make it too specific.

I just realized that I would use the culture slider a whole lot more if every 10% culture on the slider gave 1 Happiness to all cities. Currently I only ever really use it for UHVs or when I've exhausted all other measures of building happiness.

It's much easier and time efficient to pump out a weak unit while running Monarchy, trade for a luxury during the late game when everyone has multiples of 3+ luxuries, build a Temple that builds towards a Monastery, or build a building that gives 2 specialists, +25%/+2 of a yield, and up to 3 happiness (weaver, market, forge, etc)

Not sure how this will affect buildings that already have the effect, but since players would be using the Culture slider much more, It'd probably serve as a buff.

As for the general unbalancing new sources of happiness adds, a quick and dirty method could be to tie instability into happiness. Perhaps a recession gives -1 happiness, a depression give -2, overextension -1, etc. That way when you become unstable you risk snowballing to death, but the culture slider would give an easy way to combat said unhappiness until you can repair your economy. It'd also represent government funding of propaganda to rally national support like what happened with Disney Cartoons in WW2 America.

 

[1SDANi]

Is it just me or are the Aztecs having a lot of trouble recently? I've only ever seen them with 2 cities at most, and sometimes I've seen them lose said second city somehow.

 

[Tigranes]

Some civs on the map are under relentless Native or Barbarian pressure. Every other turn or so new units spawn for the duration of the civ's life time. Mali, Aztecs, Persians, China, Incas, etc... Sometimes Barbarians go to harass neighbors, but if you are Aztecs where else would they go? On the other hand -- how else to create slaves?

 

[Rodnok]

There are good changes to Tributaries civic. Before it was an automatic choice over Sovereignty with advantages only and same upkeep.

 

[Pepo]

One quick question: as Ethiopia, what is the amount of land that I need to protect from the Europeans for the third goal?

 

[Leoreth]

All times that show Ethiopia and subequatorial Africa in the tooltip.

 

[Tigranes]

Guys what do you think about capturing Great People instead of killing them? I mean even Mongols spared skilful people before beheading everyone else. Capturing Great Merchant in ancient times could mean capturing treasure! If Romans would keep Archimedes alive he could have benefited Romans. According to the popular account given by Plutarch, Archimedes was contemplating a mathematical diagram when the city was captured. A Roman soldier commanded him to come and meet General Marcellus but he declined, saying that he had to finish working on the problem. The soldier was enraged by this, and killed Archimedes with his sword. Plutarch also gives a lesser-known account of the death of Archimedes which suggests that he may have been killed while attempting to surrender to a Roman soldier. According to this story, Archimedes was carrying mathematical instruments, and was killed because the soldier thought that they were valuable items. General Marcellus was reportedly angered by the death of Archimedes, as he considered him a valuable scientific asset and had ordered that he not be harmed.