State of Civics Poll

[Dracosolon]

On Individualism, a possible change: +X% Immigration odds, -1 from Plantations.

This would have the effects of:

- Making it a bit less attractive to old Asian civs,
- More attractive to post-colonial civs,
- Encourage colonial civs to use slave plantations more.

I think someone might have mentioned it earlier but a possible flavorful/strategic effect for Tolerance as well would be to guarantee Immigration in your core cities even if you wouldn't normally get it (because you're an Old World civ). This could lead to interesting synergies as well.

 

[Dannimal]

My recent China games I actually don't use despotism at all.

Early cities are built near hills. Slavery mines provide production and commerce. Garrison for happiness / excess food for workers.

When the plantation resources are unlocked, peripheral cites can be settled, Garrison can be relocated.

The peripheral costal may lack production, but by the monarchy happiness is required for the core. The answer here is workshops - artistry also prioritized to defend from barbarians.

Only after vassalage & arenas are unlocked can you safely switch away from monarchy while keeping the core happy and populous, but by this time unit upkeep is free so might as well keep monarchy around for the Garrison happiness on the coast.

Only dying plagues do I whip now.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Of course it's usefull to sacrifice population to get a Taixue (and maybe again for a temple, but that is definetly not necessary for UHV goal 1). Nobody said you should never run despotism as China. BanFire for example said: "Idk I never ran despotism very long as China." But every time (!) you whip a population point, that could be a specialist instead with monarchy. The cities can grow up to their theoretical maximum from food and run several specialists.
That is a big effect on economy in itself. Give the buildings you whip out of that population really more to your economy than all this specialists would do?

That's why i brought up Chinese UP a few times. You don't really lose time when you whip as China.

Literally nothing prevents you from starve/stagnate cities while they can't grow due to recent whipping and run Specialists anyway. Since you will likely build Aqueducts and Granaries a few turns after they are avaliable (2 pop is enough to whip Redistibution Granary), you whip, remove most citizens from Farms to work in Taixue massive specialist workspace, wait until you can grow, put citizens back on Farms, regrow in half a turn and whip again. You don't have to sustain massive population to run lots of Specialists, should you wish, 50-75% food after whipping lets you to run deficit food for quite some time, and reap all benefits of absolutely massive production (who said anything about buildings? after you got UHV1-2 in your pocket, go conquer/vassalize Japan, Korea, SEA, Tibet, India and take their luxuries, anything you want, really, to the point you can cheese UHV3 by conquering Mughals, converting to Islam and getting Taj... at this point you probably should stop whipping core non-stop tho). Don't forget that low pops are much easier to (re)generate, either.

 

[Leoreth]

Actually this commentary is making me consider a +1 commerce from town for Tolerance...

I think I get everyone's point about Despotism - it seems there is some degree of personal preference on the Despotism vs Monarchy decision, but in any case that it's less about Monarchy being weak and more about Despotism being very strong.

So I think that's where the balance needs to set in. I have three possible ideas on how to approach it: 1) reduce the production from population hurrying generally, 2) reduce the production from population hurry but instead make it scale with city size / growth cost, 3) associate some other cost with it, e.g. lost cottage growth or GPP.

The idea of the second point is exactly what has been mentioned above - right now population hurrying seems to be especially valuable for small cities because it is cheapest to regrow and there is a large happiness buffer. By scaling the production by the amount needed to grow that would be avoided. Small cities would be relatively less capable at hurrying with population, and to pay for anything it is more efficient to grow the city first. That would actually make it also more of a cost to forego the Monarchy happiness.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Geez I forgot to contribute to the dang thread I started, if only to second or vote proposals already put forth. Blanks mean I have nothing to add (yet hehe) or lack experience. Green indicates my perennial go-tos. Red is seldom if not never. Note: For all purposes I *exclusively* play 600AD starts and this must be factored into my input. Broadly speaking, we're in a state that calls for tweaks and shuffles not a redesign.

GOVT:

• DESPOTISM - Leoreth is already on to something
• MONARCHY - Arguably the most pervasive arrangement historically should be justified in game (aka #plzbuph). Thematically the happiness bonus fits I guess (Units can be thought of as retainers/representatives/influential courtiers). Idea: combined with Conquest, extra stab gain from conquering cities BUT stab loss from cities conquered.
• ELECTIVE - My pet favorite. Bonuses are but I'd still admit I struggle to make them fit the theme, especially the Pasture commerce. Maybe Monarchy gets Pasture bonus instead.
• REPUBLIC - Don't agree with Stability penalty from Industrial Era
• STATE PARTY -
• DEMOCRACY - I like @Hickman888 's idea to link GP rate to culture

LEGT:

• CITIZENSHIP: Give the Gold hurry to Republic and bring back Forge production bonus
• VASSALAGE: Def lose the Happiness bonus. Consider moving elsewhere.
• MERITOCRACY: I think I've only ever ran it as China. I think geographic association should be reconsidered.
• CENTRALISM: If sticking with the capital focus, at least double bonuses. However I think the scope could be reimagined.
• REV: N/A
• CONSTITUTION: Effects are good and synergy w/ Demo fits.

SOCIETY:

• SLAVERY: Haven't played civs that absolutely need to capture workers and Manoralism/Vassalage combo covers all bases
• INDIVIDUALISM: Also think it needs more staying power either via direct buff or new synergy
• CASTE SYSTEM: Similar to Meritocracy, recommend overhaul to be relevant in more places
• TOTALITARIANISM:
• EGAL: Apprently I'm missing out big time on this one

ECONOMY:

• MERCHANT TRADE: Needs *something* more. Some kind of scaling relationship with Open Borders? Espionage? Happiness from more sources? Also don't fully agree with Stab penalty after Economics.
• REG TRADE: Good synergies both from Civics and certain gamestates. Love the effects. Not sure about Customs House production at least thematically, especially considering Stab bonus w/ Isolationism.
• FREE ENTERPRISE: Fine with effects per se. Objection concerns Stab penalty to Merchant Trade since the Corporation bonuses won't kick in for several techs and for many civs Economics is mainly a necessary prereq (although I can see the game design merits present here)
• CENTRAL PLANNING: Finally gave it a whirl and...oh god. #plznurph
• PUBLIC WELFARE:

RELIGION:

• DEIFICATION:
• CLERGY: Great effect but relevant for far too long due to lack of earlier alternatives
• MONASTICISM: Effect is great and has to be covered somewhere but thematically it seems contradictory. Wouldn't an association with monasteries be all too natural?
• THEOCRACY: Fulfills its purpose splendidly, especially considering the civ screen undervalues one of its effects (Not just No Spread but Negative Spread).
• TOLERANCE: #plzbuph. At least expand scope beyond capital. Maybe this is where Monasticism's GP bonus belongs?
• SECULARISM:

TERRORITY:

• SOVEREIGNTY: Please allow switching back.
• CONQUEST: See Monarchy
• TRIBUTARIES: Sleeper. The food effect gets all the attention, but some civs can combine with Reg Trade to run a powerful economy.
• ISOLATIONISM:
• COLONIALISM: Either at least double the commerce bonus or change the effect to target something else. Maintenance, trade, and settler production, come to mind.
• NATIONHOOD:
• MULTILATERISM: I've only run it as America and even then only to accelerate progress toward securing the final UHV peacefully.

A general note on at least one phenomenon the current arrangement models really well: the painful transition from an agrarian to a market economy and associated impacts on greater society. Additionally, though some civs naturally handle this better than others as in history, the game still *permits* the skilled player to double-down on a meta based on increasingly outdated civics.

 

[Dracosolon]

Meritocracy is also good for civs like Italy that stick to Republic. You might as well build Watermills and Windmills instead of Farms and Cottages, and the additional from Specialists is nice.

 

[banzay13]

Meritocracy is also good for civs like Italy that stick to Republic. You might as well build Watermills and Windmills instead of Farms and Cottages, and the additional from Specialists is nice.

But it also became obsolete and with republic you get huge negative stability

 

[TsimTsigal]

Meritocracy is also good for civs like Italy that stick to Republic. You might as well build Watermills and Windmills instead of Farms and Cottages, and the additional from Specialists is nice.

The real deal is Meritocracy + State Property. Superspecialists + super Watermills. Half of vanilla Charismatic trait isn't too bad, either, especially if you control Triumphal Arc.The only real drawback is stability, which can be safely ignored as quite a few civs.

Of course it also stacks well with Republic - iirc Watermills are one of few improvements that are not penalised under it.

 

[Dracosolon]

Assuming changes to other civics (Despotism, Vassalage) do not make it competititve, what would be a good bonus to give some additional oomph to Monarchy? The problem here is that it's a civic that should peak in the Medieval and Renaissance eras, and those are very different. The former often restrict you to a few underdeveloped cities before you can explode once colonization gets going. Something that help with both is tough to find. Ideas:
- Missionaries can provide a minor rush (like Aztec slaves) - the choice of unit is a bit arbitrary (I considered Settlers) but it'd probably need to be national units to avoid being too OP,
- +100% XP gain within cultural borders - minor defensive bonus against nasty surprises, when you lack the military and production capacity to react quickly,
- +2 in all cities - helps in Medieval era where cities start without buildings, while turbocharging the tile spread of colonies.

 

[Hickman888]

Assuming changes to other civics (Despotism, Vassalage) do not make it competititve, what would be a good bonus to give some additional oomph to Monarchy? The problem here is that it's a civic that should peak in the Medieval and Renaissance eras, and those are very different. The former often restrict you to a few underdeveloped cities before you can explode once colonization gets going. Something that help with both is tough to find. Ideas:
- Missionaries can provide a minor rush (like Aztec slaves) - the choice of unit is a bit arbitrary (I considered Settlers) but it'd probably need to be national units to avoid being too OP,
- +100% XP gain within cultural borders - minor defensive bonus against nasty surprises, when you lack the military and production capacity to react quickly,
- +2 in all cities - helps in Medieval era where cities start without buildings, while turbocharging the tile spread of colonies.

The best way to buff Monarchy, IMO, is to buff the (rather underwhelming) Constabulary, which it currently doubles production of. And then if further buffs are needed, we can go from there.

The current Constabulary is intended as an espionage booster, but +2 and +25% just doesn't cut it in the Medieval/Renaissance era, when this building first becomes available. I propose that, in addition to its other effects, the Constabulary adds +1 on all specialists in the city. This also has the happy side effect of making the player not rely so heavily on State Party/Lubyanka for espionage play.

I'd also like to see the +1 per 20% be replaced with another bonus, as should be in the exclusive purview of the culture slider IMO, but that's a topic for another day.

 

[1SDANi]

Do any buildings grant XP/promotion to spies built in them?

 

[Hickman888]

Do any buildings grant XP/promotion to spies built in them?

The Intelligence Agency and Secret Service "great building" both do. And the Security Agency grants a promotion. But those are all pretty late-game buildings.

 

[1SDANi]

The Intelligence Agency and Secret Service "great building" both do. And the Security Agency grants a promotion. But those are all pretty late-game buildings.

Hmm, kinda feels like it'd be stepping on their toes then, maybe -10% periphery population per 20% , helps with controlling vast empires but will slow your tech rate if you're not using an espionage economy

 

[TsimTsigal]

The best way to buff Monarchy, IMO, is to buff the (rather underwhelming) Constabulary, which it currently doubles production of. And then if further buffs are needed, we can go from there.

The current Constabulary is intended as an espionage booster, but +2 and +25% just doesn't cut it in the Medieval/Renaissance era, when this building first becomes available. I propose that, in addition to its other effects, the Constabulary adds +1 on all specialists in the city. This also has the happy side effect of making the player not rely so heavily on State Party/Lubyanka for espionage play.

I'd also like to see the +1 per 20% be replaced with another bonus, as should be in the exclusive purview of the culture slider IMO, but that's a topic for another day.

Double production is the most useful in new/small cities, where difference between, say, 40 and 20 turns is real, while in core cities it might be difference of 1-2 turns. Sure, it's same production value in the end, but think about opportunity cost.

I'd rather replace rather weird +1 per 20% with, say, miniscule maintenance reduction or less war weariness. Or change +2 and +25% to something like +4 and +10%, making it more impactful in small cities.

Completely agree that currently the building is very niche, and if you aren't going for Medival espionage, chances are that you will never use Monarchy bonus for them.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

 

[Hickman888]

Hmm, kinda feels like it'd be stepping on their toes then, maybe -10% periphery population per 20% , helps with controlling vast empires but will slow your tech rate if you're not using an espionage economy

I'm totally on board with this. In fact, awhile back, I suggested something very similar, except I proposed to tie in reducing peripheral instability with military units being stationed in the city as well. I just made this newer suggestion to propose a solution that isn't quite so revolutionary, as an alternative.

View attachment 688660

 

[Pawlak]

I am digging up this thread since changes in civics, seem to be back on menu as far as next stages of the long awaited large map DoC.

Aside from digging it up (inspired by the liberal democracy vs authoritarianism offtopic discussion in other thread) I will give my feedback. I was delaying it since I wanted to make a proper post evaluating all civics etc., but I wont have time for that in near future so I will just get to my main point. I believe both totalitarianism and revolution should get buffed. Perhaps something like totalitarianism allowing for less effective whipping production. Maybe something for espionage. Revolution maybe additional exp points for espionage units and double production when building them. I admit it's hard for me to find proper buffs but I believe if that two civics get a bit better it will be very useful for giving variety in late game. ATM it's basically free market vs socdem with very little variety. Function I imagine for improved totalitarianism and revolution is as useful for underdog late game civ. Making them viable for already strong empire wouldn't be particularly useful or really realistic IMO, but giving something that helps in catching up would be very cool. State Party already works like that in my estimation, but that's just one civic, if there was two more, there could be some real variety in late game choices as there is in previous eras.

If anyone else here agree with my sentiment, please provide other ideas for specific buffs, personally I don't care much what exactly but anything good would work since at the moment they are just utterly useless. I don't think I have ever used either, they are just too weak no matter what play style.

 

[banzay13]

Republic was nerf now and become ussles for ancien civs
I'm agee with upper comment about totalitarianism and revolution. Never used them in game. And Isolationism. Bonuses from that civs don't cover net income from foreign trade routes. We need more espionage bonus (+25% in all cites?) or/and some happiness bonus maybe?
For totalitarianism and revolution bonus can be: double production to all espionage building (inc Jails and constabulary? maybe?)

 

[Dracosolon]

One possibility for Meritocracy and Revolutionism would be to switch some of their bonuses around so that Revolutionism is more clearly a martial civic and Meritocracy an economic one. So the XP bonus would go to Revolutionism (synergy with the Great General bonus too) and the Workshop/Lumbermill to Meritocracy. But that might not fit with which civilizations are "supposed" to use them, I'm not sure.

 

[BigSchwartzzz]

Republic was nerf now and become ussles for ancien civs
I'm agee with upper comment about totalitarianism and revolution. Never used them in game. And Isolationism. Bonuses from that civs don't cover net income from foreign trade routes. We need more espionage bonus (+25% in all cites?) or/and some happiness bonus maybe?
For totalitarianism and revolution bonus can be: double production to all espionage building (inc Jails and constabulary? maybe?)

Italy needs Republic until it becomes outdated. The food production in the core is the pits, so the switch causes famine in the most populated part of Italy. It would be good if it didn't get outdated.