Dawn of Civilization General Discussion

[freethink]

I don't think the game is able to represent the regional nature of slavery in the US and all the transitional stages towards the abolition of slavery. So yeah to use slaves you would be the Confederate States of America.

Not to get to off topic, but I want to give some historical context that defends the current naming system

The C.S.A. was expansionist from its inception, harboring ambitions to capture California and actively invading Kentucky against its population's wishes. The more famous Confederate invasion of Pennsylvania culminating at Gettysburg further demonstrates these aggressive tendencies.

It's historically significant that Southern regions less dependent on slavery typically remained loyal to the Union government (or at least refused to support the CSA). Meaning that support for the C.S.A really depended on slavery alone with all other talking points being outright lies or exaggerations. This pattern supports categorizing the CSA as representing the slave-holding interests across the United States. Pre-war statements from politicians who later became Confederate leaders indicate they would have extended slavery throughout the entire nation had that been possible.

The Confederacy's "Golden Circle" plan—which aimed to expand southward into the Caribbean and parts of Latin America—parallels the scenario historical U.S. objective of establishing control over Mexico by 1900. So really the American Civilization in game represents the visions of both slave holding and non slaving holding leaders (remember Alexander Hamilton who did not own slaves also wanted to start wars to add to American territory)

Therefore, classifying slavery-based American civilization as the C.S.A. is historically accurate, despite neo-Confederate claims that the Confederate States had purely defensive aims. The Confederacy was aggressively expansionist whenever possible; it appears otherwise only because, fortunately, its resources were severely constrained almost immediately after secession.

Thanks, Leoreth!

 

[SultanRedSnake]

The Confederacy was aggressively expansionist whenever possible

I mean, the flag (and attitude of course) can be seen here in South Jersey even today so you *******might****** be onto something. #RespeccMyConfederasah!

 

[AOS9001]

Very excited to test this one out! I'll try to run some games tomorrow and see what the results are.

 

[Tigranes]

I did run couple of games all the way to 1968 and did not see much improvement for USA or Russia. The terminal city for Russia is Irkutsk, on a good day. The American situation is attached. Notice how different is Canada in terms of understanding their Manifest Destiny. Los Angeles takes over Phoenix' Cow and Phoenix still stays as a size 1 city...

 

[Leoreth]

Irkutsk is already an improvement in my book, they are probably prevented from progressing beyond that for terrain reasons. From the map it looks like they also manage to fill out their territory that far a bit better, instead of just having that daisy chain?

For the US, are you by any chance seeing Pioneers sitting around in cities doing nothing? If yes, please upload the save.

 

[Leoreth]

Also, considering that you played into the late game, any observations on the tech progression?

 

[Leoreth]

The Russian settler map is also a bit sparse after that point. Any suggestions for cities in that gap area that the AI should go for?

 

[Tigranes]

View attachment 723843

The Russian settler map is also a bit sparse after that point. Any suggestions for cities in that gap area that the AI should go for?

Blagoveshensk is on Marsh tile currently and no tech ever allows to settle Marshes. On the risk of sounding political, I would petition to allow laborers to drain the swamp at some point of human history, please!

 

[Tigranes]

Irkutsk is already an improvement in my book, they are probably prevented from progressing beyond that for terrain reasons. From the map it looks like they also manage to fill out their territory that far a bit better, instead of just having that daisy chain?

For the US, are you by any chance seeing Pioneers sitting around in cities doing nothing? If yes, please upload the save.

Here is a 1868 vs 1968 situation of the same autorun (3000 BC, Regent, Normal), with the (same?) Pioneer sitting in Washington for 100 years.

 

[Temujin8k]

Blagoveshensk is on Marsh tile currently and no tech ever allows to settle Marshes. On the risk of sounding political, I would petition to allow laborers to drain the swamp at some point of human history, please!

Blagoveshchensk should be on (130, 65) (Moorland/Forest) and not (129, 65) (Marsh), right? It's on the eastern bank of the Amur River.

 

[Orbii]

Double-posting but I just booted up a Rus game and Byzantium is collapsed to Barbarians again. I say 'again' because I did a Poland game a few nights ago and Byzantium was also collapsed to Barbarians in that game at my spawn. I booted up my Portugal save from that night too to check, and Byzantium isn't collapsed but they somehow have Legions? All games are 600 AD Regent/Normal.

Spoiler Dead Byzantines :

Spoiler Komnenian Legions :

 

[Leoreth]

In terms of tech balance, things are definitely better but Britain and France still seem on track to significantly outpace everyone, with Germany as slight competition. How far ahead they are though is quite a bit less, but still a clear and possibly unsurmountable lead.

Thanks. To be clear, I did nothing yet to address the imbalance between civilizations. The goal was only to make the techs that end up being researched more time appropriate.

 

[borhap88]

I'll run some Regent/Normal tests today.

If it could be usefeul somehow, I played a couple of Monarch/Marathon games with England since the last update. Things are better, even for tech UHV, but still unbalanced (e.g. weird Eiffel Tower in Valladolid in 1792, my great medieval Norse tech partner going for Refinig in 1820 etc.).
Some notes:
- Byzantium (600 AD start), as written before by others, always lose vital cities, often including Byzantium, to stronger Barbs, I think they should be nerfed (a stack of lancers against archers is too much);
- Qurtubah should receive better protection against early (before 1000 AD) Spanish Reconquista, otherwise Spanish will become a beast;
- Russia still expands too slowly, but it eventually reaches central Siberia during 19th century, America still doesn't reach West Coast;
- from Industrial era, I wasn't able to trade any techs because nobody wanted to. Was I too mean to my (protestant) friends? Was I too ahead during late Renaissance? Is this intentional? By the way, it helped avoiding excessive tech rush than before, so newborn civs are still able to compete with ancient ones, but if so, maybe it could be tone down during Industrial era and tone up before.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

I'm far from a specialist in Russian history, here are some suggestions after looking some historical and modern maps (I've deliberately ignored the already included settler priorities or if the terrain allows settling):

Spoiler Central Siberia :

View attachment 723877
Suggested settler value:
Ilimsk, Bratsk, Norilsk - 5
Mangazeya, Yessey, Khatanga, Severobaykalsk - 3

Spoiler East Siberia :

View attachment 723875
Ulan-Ude, Chita, Nerchinsk, Zhingansk, Okthotsk - 5
Olenyok, Olyokminsk, Vilyuysk, Tynda, Anadyrsk - 3

Some of these towns like Norilsk and Tynda never existed until the Soviet times, the emphasis should be on what was founded first, also you missed placing Yakutsk there, instead choosing to place Vilyuysk, and Yakutsk is more important than Vilyuysk besides having been founded all the way back in 1632. Also there really should be Irkutsk too as well

 

[AOS9001]

Wow, Mega Kongo and Mega Colombia! I don't often see those two civs doing anything.

 

[FraggleJock]

Regent/Normal
Just ran through a couple of Canada 600ad starts and only halifax was settled and USA is stalled at the Mississippi

Played some games from the 1700 start, St John is still a horror to get voted off the English.
The Chateau is a no show it gets build way before you have the tech even researched so Labour Union is the way to go.
Europe is stable until Hitler shows up then Germany goes mad and explodes racing away techwise 3-4 columns ahead of everyone else with Poland under his thumb.

 

[Leoreth]

I wouldn't get my hopes up for now about an aggressive Japan. It's very difficult to get the AI to do a successful naval invasion until an overall improvement in unit AI. Still, it is kind of a shame to see independent Asia there for the taking and them not doing anything. Are they at war with those indies?

 

[Leoreth]

That's true, I only adjusted the logic that made the AI willing to use nukes at all, without improving the targeting rationale. I agree that repeated nuking of the same target makes little sense. Maybe there should be some additional condition about army/building value at the target.

No idea what could make a difference in the use of nukes or nuclear bombers. I would actually assume that bombers are the ones that end up being unused because they are unusual from the perspective of BtS.

I believe there is a similar thing at work with Pioneers. I encountered a bug before where American Pioneers would always idle, and assumed I had fixed it along with the overall settler fix. Maybe there is some specific issue with them having a combat strength that confuses the AI in some way. Perhaps it is waiting for a defender to join the unit but also concludes it doesn't need additional defenders due to its own strength? I will investigate at the next opportunity.

I have also been thinking about what we should regard as "historical accurate technology" and I think it makes most sense to expect only the tech leading civilizations to be on par with what we consider the technology of the day. Usually historical dates of technologies are associated with the first or first few nations to develop them, not a widespread adoption that can often take over a decade to spread to other nations. There are still nations in the world today trying to develop nuclear power. Still, generally it happens faster than in the game right now and it should be more than 1-2 nations at the leading edge of global technology.

 

[borhap88]

Canadian game, 600AD Regent/Normal

1866. Tech pace is good, insignificant British Empire, super-Spain, pretty good Ottomans, it seems that the center of the world was arounde the Strait of Gibraltar. Eastern Siberia and West America are still a problem.

Spoiler 1866 :

1966. Same as before. Spain and Moors are tech leaders, Spain, Ottos and Russia are super military power. Good outcome for Mughals too, who kept India from Euros (this is a pattern I noticed in my other marathon games too). Siberia and Great Plains still mainly unsettled, Australia and New Zealand too. Europe is dominated by totalitarian regimes: Hitler, Franco and Mussolini live together. Russia and China are nationalist and capitalist.

Spoiler 1966 :

 

[Tigranes]

When capturing the Itaipu Dam, does it not give your cities on the same continent hydro power? Do you have to build it yourself? As Babylonia, I captured an Independent (or Neutral) city that was a former city of India that had the Itaipu Dam, but my cities (in Asia) didn't get hydro power even after the city disorder ended and I had a trade connection from that city to my original cities (through the open borders of a another civ).

The game treats India and Middle East as different continents.