Caligastia
Space Cadet
Being able to hear is always better than not being able to. Do I really need to tell you this?
Deaf "culture"
- Thread starter Caligastia
- Start date
Simon Darkshade
Mysterious City of Gold
"I'm really amazed that so many of you think that the parents are wrong by not letting their child have cochlear implants.
It is the first time you have seen this family and not even in real life but on television. Still you think you can make better decisions for this child than the parents can. Come on people, you don't know what is best for this child, you don't even know the child! Only the closest family (the parents) know what is best for their child. The parents have the same disability and they managed to build up a life, they even found somebody to start a family with..."
Again, it is not so much their non-decision, but rather the outlandish excuse of deaf culture that was given. And whilst it is true that one does not at this time know the child in question, it does not automatically exclude the possibility of comment on the issue.
It is not so much a comment on this case, but the principles of the situation involved. In my view, to deprive a child of the chance of a full enjoyment of life is wrong. The option of such implants did not exist when these parents were at a comparable age, I would think, so they had no option but to adapt. But the child has the chance to experience life to a greater extent through this current option.
To deprive the child of this chance is intolerable, in my view, and tantamount to abuse. I have known many parents who have no idea what is best for their child, or warped ideas, and the child has suffered as a consequence. It is a miracle of the modern age that such things are possible. So many people have had to live their lives without the possession of their hearing. Now that a solution is in existence, it cannot be ignored.
It is the first time you have seen this family and not even in real life but on television. Still you think you can make better decisions for this child than the parents can. Come on people, you don't know what is best for this child, you don't even know the child! Only the closest family (the parents) know what is best for their child. The parents have the same disability and they managed to build up a life, they even found somebody to start a family with..."
Again, it is not so much their non-decision, but rather the outlandish excuse of deaf culture that was given. And whilst it is true that one does not at this time know the child in question, it does not automatically exclude the possibility of comment on the issue.
It is not so much a comment on this case, but the principles of the situation involved. In my view, to deprive a child of the chance of a full enjoyment of life is wrong. The option of such implants did not exist when these parents were at a comparable age, I would think, so they had no option but to adapt. But the child has the chance to experience life to a greater extent through this current option.
To deprive the child of this chance is intolerable, in my view, and tantamount to abuse. I have known many parents who have no idea what is best for their child, or warped ideas, and the child has suffered as a consequence. It is a miracle of the modern age that such things are possible. So many people have had to live their lives without the possession of their hearing. Now that a solution is in existence, it cannot be ignored.
Drekken
l33t Civer
True, but the point is that these parents were brainwashed by the usual liberal BS that disability = great. Any rational person would jump at the chance to remove their or someone that they love disability. In this case though, the parents are not thinking rationally.
Drekken
l33t Civer
You're not free when you're brainwashed. Like Caligastia said, "Being able to hear is always better than not being able to. Do I really need to tell you this?". How can any rational person think otherwise?
PinkyGen
Paper copying intern
I don't think we can blame liberalism for this one. I think you have to go very far to the fringe before anyone would claim this. It's not a matter of liberal vs. conservative, as both sides would have reasons to intervene or not to intervene (ex. liberals and mandatory education, conservatives and Christian healing. And no, I don't want a debate on home-schooling or any other stuff from the other thread
)Oh, and I consider this child abuse, as they are not helping the welfare of the child.
Drekken
l33t Civer
The reason I did, is that liberals are willing to accept anything as good and normal. As far as lots of liberals are concerned pedophilia is normal and acceptable (look at British Colombia's court system as an example). These parents have seen too much of this and started to think: "Hey, being deaf is normal and natural. Anyone who wants to restore hearing to my loved ones must be Nazi that wants to kill deaf people." It's liberal attitudes that cause people to think that everything wrong with them is perfect and normal, and when a solution comes along, they reject it thinking that nothing is wrong with them.
As a free and democratic society, we have to finely balance the need and desires of the state, and society. In this case the balance is between the principles of society and those of the family.
On the one hand, the child is a citizen of the free world, and we want all our citizens to be free to choose what is best for themselves, provided it is not contrary to society as a whole. On the other hand, we as a society, also value the ultimate authority that parents should have in the upbringing of their children.
Who am I to tell others how to raise their children? Where is the line going to be drawn? If it is legally permissable for them to exercise this judgement upon their child, then the problem I have is with our legal system.
I do not agree with the parent's choice in this case. I do not care what their reasons are! It is WRONG!! PERIOD! There is NO EXCUSE! But, I obviously do not represent society, otherwise our laws would be different.
On the one hand, the child is a citizen of the free world, and we want all our citizens to be free to choose what is best for themselves, provided it is not contrary to society as a whole. On the other hand, we as a society, also value the ultimate authority that parents should have in the upbringing of their children.
Who am I to tell others how to raise their children? Where is the line going to be drawn? If it is legally permissable for them to exercise this judgement upon their child, then the problem I have is with our legal system.
I do not agree with the parent's choice in this case. I do not care what their reasons are! It is WRONG!! PERIOD! There is NO EXCUSE! But, I obviously do not represent society, otherwise our laws would be different.
The statement and example is simply WRONG.
My excuse is that I am American. I simply reside in British Columbia. What is yours?
The Canadian Criminal Code is applied throughout Canada, and all criminal courts refer ultimate precedence to the Supreme Court of Canada with reference to the Canadian Criminal Code (NOT the BC Criminal Code, or the AB Criminal Code). The exception being Quebec, where a Supreme Court judge must take into account the Quebec Civil Code where it may have application in criminal matters. Pedophilia and Child Abuse are both matters dealt with in the Criminal Code for which provincial authority and/or preference has no say whatsoever.
Unlike America, eg., CA vs. NY, there is NO difference in the criminal code between states.
Drekken
l33t Civer
All I know that the anti-pedophilia law was stuck down by a BC court. A law that stood for many years was all of a sudden stuck down by a judge during a child-porn case. Do you know what I'm talking about or do I have to drag up the article on it?
You guys are missing the point.
To many deaf people, deaf culture is just that: a culture, separate and distinct from that most Americans are used to. It has its own practices, its own mores, even its own schools and language. American Sign Language, for instance, is not a slavish translation of American English. It's a separate form of communication that uses hand, arm and finger movement to pass on words and concepts that translate only loosely into standard English. (This also helps explain why many deaf people who use ASL have trouble with written English. To them, American English is a second language.)
Those deaf people who are part of deaf culture look at things like coclear implants and speech therapy as a form of cultural repression practiced on them by the hearing world. Look at it from their perspective: Enabling a deaf child of two deaf parents to hear is robbing them of their heritage and culture.
Don't get me wrong. If any of my children were deaf, I'd get them coclear implants in a second. But if I were deaf (and I'm not), I might feel a lot differently.
Call it liberal crap, but it's a fact, Jack.
To many deaf people, deaf culture is just that: a culture, separate and distinct from that most Americans are used to. It has its own practices, its own mores, even its own schools and language. American Sign Language, for instance, is not a slavish translation of American English. It's a separate form of communication that uses hand, arm and finger movement to pass on words and concepts that translate only loosely into standard English. (This also helps explain why many deaf people who use ASL have trouble with written English. To them, American English is a second language.)
Those deaf people who are part of deaf culture look at things like coclear implants and speech therapy as a form of cultural repression practiced on them by the hearing world. Look at it from their perspective: Enabling a deaf child of two deaf parents to hear is robbing them of their heritage and culture.
Don't get me wrong. If any of my children were deaf, I'd get them coclear implants in a second. But if I were deaf (and I'm not), I might feel a lot differently.
Call it liberal crap, but it's a fact, Jack.
PinkyGen
Paper copying intern
No offense to Franklyn, as this is the main defense used by most supporting the parents. I do not deny the existense of deaf culture, but I don't think the fact that there is a culture excuses the parents actions. One could claim that it's in the Taliban's culture to beat there wives, or Christian Science's ( or whatever they are called) culture to deny life-saving medication to their children.
Deafness is a disability that will unduly eliminate a large amount of potential this child has. This not to say deaf people are worthless, or that this child cannot lead a productive life. But the child will also be disconnected from most of his or her peers, to not be able to use phones, to not even listen to beautiful music (or bad music
).One thing to remember about deaf culture in this particular instance: If the child can hear, he or she is no longer part of the culture. And those who subscribe to deaf culture aren't looking to assimilate with the hearing world. That's what makes this so mind-blowing.
Another thing: Unlike in cases of physical abuse or life-threatening actions such as denying medicine, letting a child remain deaf isn't considered a denial of civil rights.
Another thing: Unlike in cases of physical abuse or life-threatening actions such as denying medicine, letting a child remain deaf isn't considered a denial of civil rights.
Originally posted by Caligastia
Once again the Civfanatics have shown themselves to be far more intelligent than those at Apolyton. Unbelievably there are many at apolyton who support the deaf parents decision.
I guess thats why I still go to Apolyton, for the comical loonies...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39492
Hey, TF has said that no SpammApolyton bashing here!
.Ooops...
'Deaf Culture'? Maybe those parents should be forced to visit mental hospital.
I agree with the parents right to choose for their child. I posted a lot more but my keyboard messed up and I deleted the rest of the post. I just wanted to get my opinion in here since seemingly everyone equates not giving the child the implant as child abuse.
How many of you have ever spent time with truely deaf people? I don't mean ones that have implants or that are hard of hearing. I mean born deaf and will never ever hear anything in their lives? I have. I have been to deaf clubs and while I believe they are a little snotty for seeing themselves as the only ones that are truely deaf you have to give them some slack as no one else in life does. I have seen how horrible our country (USA) treats people with disabilities. My wife recently twisted her ankle badly and was in a cast. She could walk very far as it caused her pain and alot of the stores we went into didn't have wheelchairs or powerchairs. I wonder how many of those stores had employees that could sign? It is said b/c almost every community has deaf people but you never notice them b/c they do live a seperate life in a different community b/c they have no way, besides writing, to communitcate effectively with us. And can you imagine the anger of people waiting in line for a deaf person as they write messages back and forth to the clerk? I wouldn't want to deal with it either and would stay with other deaf people.
There is also a learning problem that is displayed when you have a child that can speak and the parents cannot. The school doesn't teach the child everything, the parents are a main part of it and they, being deaf, will not be able to help at all.
How many of you have ever spent time with truely deaf people? I don't mean ones that have implants or that are hard of hearing. I mean born deaf and will never ever hear anything in their lives? I have. I have been to deaf clubs and while I believe they are a little snotty for seeing themselves as the only ones that are truely deaf you have to give them some slack as no one else in life does. I have seen how horrible our country (USA) treats people with disabilities. My wife recently twisted her ankle badly and was in a cast. She could walk very far as it caused her pain and alot of the stores we went into didn't have wheelchairs or powerchairs. I wonder how many of those stores had employees that could sign? It is said b/c almost every community has deaf people but you never notice them b/c they do live a seperate life in a different community b/c they have no way, besides writing, to communitcate effectively with us. And can you imagine the anger of people waiting in line for a deaf person as they write messages back and forth to the clerk? I wouldn't want to deal with it either and would stay with other deaf people.
There is also a learning problem that is displayed when you have a child that can speak and the parents cannot. The school doesn't teach the child everything, the parents are a main part of it and they, being deaf, will not be able to help at all.
Drekken
l33t Civer
Yes I am. I should of quoted it in the beginning to avoid confusion (I could see how you misunderstood me based on how I wrote that one post). That is my example of how Liberals have to go and "liberate" everyone. Just like the deaf child/people/culture we are discussing about, pedophiles and their "culture" need HELP not LIBERATION.
Drekken
l33t Civer
Just a point:
Deafness can technically be called a culture since deaf people are portion of our population, but by this same definition we have a "cancer culture" made up people who have cancer. So does that mean we should stop treating cancer patients to avoid killing their 'culture'? No.
The danger of looking at deafness being a 'culture' is that deafness will be viewed as desirable trait and not as a disability. When that happens efforts to cure deafness will be stopped since we don't want to kill off a "culture". We should draw a line here and say, "deafness is a disability that needs to be repaired and not a 'culture' that needs to be preserved".
Deafness can technically be called a culture since deaf people are portion of our population, but by this same definition we have a "cancer culture" made up people who have cancer. So does that mean we should stop treating cancer patients to avoid killing their 'culture'? No.
The danger of looking at deafness being a 'culture' is that deafness will be viewed as desirable trait and not as a disability. When that happens efforts to cure deafness will be stopped since we don't want to kill off a "culture". We should draw a line here and say, "deafness is a disability that needs to be repaired and not a 'culture' that needs to be preserved".
Sixchan
Emperor
Well, I know someone who was born deaf and got the implant later in her life. She seemed to enjoy hearing.
My friend experienced this, when she got the implant, those problems disappeared.
Well, my friend could speak and use sign language. She passed almost all of her highers (university entrance exams).
Caligastia
Space Cadet
What, so you think everyone should learn to sign just to accommodate a tiny percentage of the population?!
Dont you think it would be more practical and better for everyone concerned if the deaf people got implants so they could hear? How can you say the US treats people with disabilities badly? Name one other country in the world that treats them better.
Is it really that difficult for you people to understand that being deaf is a BAD THING??!! To think anything else you must have a very tenuous grip on reality...
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