Death to all collaborators?

[Pasi Nurminen]

The rule of law isnt about buildings and courtrooms. Its about respect for the law. Any group of organized citizens resisting an occupation should arm themselves with copies of their Constitution in addition to weapons. When someone is brought before the Resistance and accused of being a collaborator, there is some sort of process involved. Im sure a mere accusation wouldnt suffice to have someone dragged out back and shot in the head. So if theres going to be a process, why not make sure that its one that conforms with the laws of the government everyone is fighting to reinstate?

The real world does not work that way. It's nice to sit in your computer chair with an internet connection and hot food, hot water, and hot porn whenever you want or need it, but the real world calls for a certain degree of ruthlessness that isn't present in many western societies. In the real world, during an occupation, due process simply isn't a possibility.

 

[Winner]

English isn't your first language Winner, so I can forgive you for not reading any of my posts correctly. If you did, you'd know I am not talking about post liberation. I am talking about during the occupation.

I'll give you some time to rephrase your posts accordingly.

You're right, I missed that part, but it doesn't matter, the situation isn't much different.

Execution would be justified only if they were a threat to the resistance (traitors).

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

You're right, I missed that part, but it doesn't matter, the situation isn't much different.

Execution would be justified only if they were a threat to the resistance (traitors).

Being forced to cooperate in some way under duress is not collaboration. Collaboration is actively working with the occupation to harm those working against it in any way.

...

I'm glad we agree.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The rule of law isnt about buildings and courtrooms. Its about respect for the law. Any group of organized citizens resisting an occupation should arm themselves with copies of their Constitution in addition to weapons. When someone is brought before the Resistance and accused of being a collaborator, there is some sort of process involved. Im sure a mere accusation wouldnt suffice to have someone dragged out back and shot in the head. So if theres going to be a process, why not make sure that its one that conforms with the laws of the government everyone is fighting to reinstate?

Allright, you have a point. This is what I had in mind as well. Just executing someone because another sais he's working with the enemy wouldn't be enough in my opinion either. It would still need to be proven.

 

[ComradeDavo]

What's an obvious collaboration?

Example: Germans came to my grandmother and said "we need you to grow some tobacco (it's a strategic resource in any war ) for us on your field."

What should she do? Should she say "no, screw you, I am not a collaborator" and risk death? I am sure all you heroes who are so quick to tell what's wrong would have refused and died honourably.

In the real world, she did what they said. After few months, two German officers came to her house. She had radio turned on and "Free Europe" or something like that - an Allied radio station tuned on. Listening to this was punishable by death. Moreover, her uncle left a map next to the radio with German positions marked with red pins. Another reason to execute her and the entire family. They just looked at it, said something like "my friend serves in that unit", they listened to some German music for a while, and then they said thanks and they left. Nobody came later to kill her.

I don't know what I would do in that time, but I know world isn't black and white. You do what you have to do in order to survive.

I meant obvious collaboration as in serving in military police units, actively suppressing the resistence, informing and so forth. Thats why I used the word 'obvious' - as in you know for sure they are just doing what there told becaus ethey ahve to, but because they want to.

The example you give is quite clearly not an exaple of an obvious collaborater.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No. I'd lie, I'd evade this task as much as possible. But I don't know what I'd do if they put a gun to my head and said: "tell me where the Jew is or you're dead".

Ah, but that's forced co-operation. No one could blame you when you cooperate with a gun to your head.

Again, the definition I use is: to cooperate treasonably, as with an enemy occupation force in one's country.

I am sure that after the war, I'd be tried as a war criminal for the crime of staying alive.

I'm sure you wouldn't.

Nobody can imagine how terrible such situation is, so I'll remain sceptical to all "internet heroes" who would probably crapped themselves in such situation.

No one claiming to be a hero. I am probably the most chickensh*t poster on CFC. You are using this hero routine to ridicule. It has nothing to do with heroes. It has to do with cooperating with the enemy to enrich yourself, not to survive.

The people who were hiding jews in WWII are bigger heroes than I'd ever claim to be.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The real world does not work that way. It's nice to sit in your computer chair with an internet connection and hot food, hot water, and hot porn whenever you want or need it, but the real world calls for a certain degree of ruthlessness that isn't present in many western societies. In the real world, during an occupation, due process simply isn't a possibility.

Respecting the laws of the country youre fighting for has nothing to do with computers, chairs, hot food, hot water or hot porn. The people who hundreds of years ago fought and died to give us these laws which youre so ready to throw away, had none of those things.

edit: wel, ok, they had chairs...

edit: uh, they probably had hot food and water too, but heck you know what I mean.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Respecting the laws of the country youre fighting for has nothing to do with computers, chairs, hot food, hot water or hot porn. The people who hundreds of years ago fought and died to give us these laws which youre so ready to throw away, had none of those things.

edit: wel, ok, they had chairs...

But if you're fighting a resistance against an enemy that potentially wants to exterminate your people to provide lebensraum for its own, observing the rules of due process probably means defeat and death, as they are far too cumbersome for a resistance movement. So yeah, if you want yourself, your friends, and your family to all die, go ahead and give collaborators due process during the occupation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

But if you're fighting a resistance against an enemy that potentially wants to exterminate your people to provide lebensraum for its own, observing the rules of due process probably means defeat and death, as they are far too cumbersome for a resistance movement. So yeah, if you want yourself, your friends, and your family to all die, go ahead and give collaborators due process during the occupation.

Pasi, so, according to your logic, if I shoot an accused person like a dog, without a trial, my family and friends will live. If I provide the accused with as fair a trial as possible, one that adheres to the laws of the country I profess to love, my family and friends will die?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Pasi, so, according to your logic, if I shoot an accused person like a dog, without a trial, my family and friends will live.

Not just anyone who has been accused. That's just a witch hunt. Anyone who is knowingly working with the enemy, yes.

If I provide the accused with as fair a trial as possible, one that adheres to the laws of the country I profess to love, my family and friends will die?

Essentially. If the resistance movement is so cumbersome to provide a collaborator with a lawyer, a judge, a jury, and a nine month long trial, the resistance will fail, and the people will die. Either literally everyone will be killed, or eventually the people will cease to exist as a recognizable unit as they are forced to assimilate into the occupiers' country. A resistance without the required level of ruthlessness will fail.

 

[Winner]

Ah, but that's forced co-operation. No one could blame you when you cooperate with a gun to your head.

Again, the definition I use is: to cooperate treasonably, as with an enemy occupation force in one's country.

I'm sure you wouldn't.

Well, this is exactly what happened in Czechoslovakia after the war. People accused each other of everything: "hey, you used to hang out with the Germans, you're a traitor! Kill the traitor!" BANG. "I saw you talking to the military commander just before they made some arrests! You're a traitor, die!" BANG. "You slut fell in love with a German soldier! Die!" BANG. "You speak German? You have a German surname? Then you must be German! Die!" BANG.

I am a bit exaggerating it, but it was really horrible. There is a great Czech movie, "Musíme si pomáhat" (Divided We Fall is the English title) about the occupation, collaboration, resistance etc. Post-liberation period is depicted in all its absurdity and cruelty. A man who was hiding a Jew in his house during the whole war, who had to act like he was a friend of the local German leaders, is almost executed by the "resistance" fighters at the end, because they think he is a traitor.

No one claiming to be a hero. I am probably the most chickensh*t poster on CFC. You are using this hero routine to ridicule. It has nothing to do with heroes. It has to do with cooperating with the enemy to enrich yourself, not to survive.

The people who were hiding jews in WWII are bigger heroes than I'd ever claim to be.

I wasn't talking about you in particular.

BTW, where are you from?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Not just anyone who has been accused. That's just a witch hunt. Anyone who is knowingly working with the enemy, yes.

Alright, how do we move from suspecting, to knowing? Thats what trials are for. I doubt the Resistance is going to rely on tea leaf reading gypsies to determine guilt or innocence.

Essentially. If the resistance movement is so cumbersome to provide a collaborator with a lawyer, a judge, a jury, and a nine month long trial, the resistance will fail, and the people will die.

A trial carried out by the Resistance in war time wouldnt be as elaborate or 'perfect' as in peace time, of course. Does that mean that we should toss our laws out the window? Of course not. As much as possible, the process that is used to determine guilt or innocence should conform with the law. Thats very important, because if a resistance movement doesnt do that, its just a gang.

Either literally everyone will be killed, or eventually the people will cease to exist as a recognizable unit as they are forced to assimilate into the occupiers' country. A resistance without the required level of ruthlessness will fail.

Ruthlessness does not equal mindlessness. Or it shouldnt.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@Winner:
Holland, and:

This is what I had in mind as well. Just executing someone because another sais he's working with the enemy wouldn't be enough in my opinion either. It would still need to be proven.

 

[Sidhe]

Depends what they did? Would I punish the guards in a death camp as harshly as the commandant, of course not! The commandant as harshly as Heinrich Himmler? No context here, thus it has to be a no.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

A trial carried out by the Resistance in war time wouldnt be as elaborate or 'perfect' as in peace time, of course. Does that mean that we should toss our laws out the window? Of course not. As much as possible, the process that is used to determine guilt or innocence should conform with the law. Thats very important, because if a resistance movement doesnt do that, its just a gang.

Very well, we can have trials.

Resistance member one: You're under arrest. You have been accused of collaborating with the enemy. How do you plead?

Collaborator: Not Guilty.

Resistance member one: Your plea has been rejected. You have been found guilty. The sentence is death. Would you like to take up the case in an appeals court?

Collaborator: Yes.

Resistance member one: Tom?

Resistance member two: The sentence has been upheld.

Resistance member one: Do you have any last words?

Collaborator: <Insert gibberish here>

Resistance member one: Very well, let's get this over with.

BANG!

I guess it could work.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Also, could a moderator change Winner's vote to yes? He agrees with my definition of collaborator, and agrees that they should be shot, so a change is in order.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So Pasi, if I'd accuse you of being a collaborator, you'd be shot?

 

[Yeeek]

The question is far too wide thus I vote "No".

You can't include all the people in the same bag. For instance, in occupied France during world war two, you can't compare authorities of the Vichy regime who clearly helped in the deportation of French citizen to the death camps and the locals who did some bargains with the German stationed in their village.

My mother family did sympathized with a few German soldiers. They traded milk, butter, bread, wine, booze and stuff like that for cigarettes (real cigarettes was really a luxury, if not you had to smoke corn), soap, chocolate and other stuff which was considered luxury at the time. Living in rural areas was also better than living in the cities. They were farmers so it helped a fair bit.

Were they traitors? You decide. You do what you have to do in such harsh time. Sure they did that and told no one else in fear of being pointed at "bad people". But to be honest, most people were just simply jealous because they had nothing to trade.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Very well, we can have trials.

Resistance member one: You're under arrest. You have been accused of collaborating with the enemy. How do you plead?

Collaborator: Not Guilty.

Resistance member one: Your plea has been rejected. You have been found guilty. The sentence is death. Would you like to take up the case in an appeals court?

Collaborator: Yes.

Resistance member one: Tom?

Resistance member two: The sentence has been upheld.

Resistance member one: Do you have any last words?

Collaborator: <Insert gibberish here>

Resistance member one: Very well, let's get this over with.

BANG!

I guess it could work.

Pasi, is that the only trial that would satisfy you, because people get shot quicker?

The main focus of a resistance movement shouldnt be about rooting out collaborators, the focus is on kicking the enemy out of the country. How many people worked for the Vichy government? Did the resistance have enough ammunition to shoot them all?

Win the war first, then deal with the collaborators.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

So Pasi, if I'd accuse you of being a collaborator, you'd be shot?

Not just anyone who has been accused. That's just a witch hunt. Anyone who is knowingly working with the enemy, yes.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language either.