Decolonization of Africa

[sp1023]

Aside from South Africa, which country would probably have been the most monumental decolonization? (I'm not sure if I make sense here, forgive me if I don't.)

 

[bombshoo]

What do you mean monumental? Be more descriptive. Most exciting? Most politically important?

Gold Coast/Ghana, the first black African country to be decolonized is probably the most influential. It is what really got the ball rolling for the others to achieve independence.

To be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean with South Africa. It was never exactly "decolonized" in the classic sense. It went from being a white dominated dominion, to a white dominated republic, to a fully democratic republic. Are you arguing that it wasn't fully "decolonized" until the end of the Apartheid era? I've seen this argument before, and to be honest it does make a certain amount of sense, so I can see how South Africa and Namibia as the truly last states to be decolonized, can be considered monumental, if you consider colonialism something more than simply outside control by another government.

 

[LightSpectra]

Aside from South Africa, which country would probably have been the most monumental decolonization? (I'm not sure if I make sense here, forgive me if I don't.)

I don't know what you mean by "monumental;" if your intended meaning is something like "significant to world affairs," then I doubt South Africa would be it, since it was achieved interwar on relatively peaceful terms.

I would say Algeria, since it was one of the primary contributing factors to the end of the French Fourth Republic.

 

[Karalysia]

Central African Empire

 

[Tee Kay]

Aside from South Africa, which country would probably have been the most monumental decolonization? (I'm not sure if I make sense here, forgive me if I don't.)

If by "monumental" you mean "most important", probably Nigeria.

If by "monumental" you mean "most cluster****ed", probably the Democratic Republic of Congo

 

[Lord Baal]

If "monumental" means 'most important' then it is clearly Algeria. By a wide margin. It's decolonisation kicked off a short civil war in France, for Zeus's sake.

 

[Tee Kay]

If "monumental" means 'most important' then it is clearly Algeria. By a wide margin. It's decolonisation kicked off a short civil war in France, for Zeus's sake.

In the short-term, yes, Algeria was probably the most important. In the long-term, not so much.

 

[Lord Baal]

In the short-term, yes, Algeria was probably the most important. In the long-term, not so much.

It led to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and creation of the Fifth, Charles De Gaulle's presidency, the creation of the OAS, the civil war in France and Algeria and all of De Gaulle's subsequent actions as President. That's pretty damn important in the long-term.

Not to mention producing the greatest thriller of all time in The Day of the Jackal. That alone makes it important, since that book rocks.

 

[innonimatu]

I agree. And it's amazing how the french manage to create big dramas where other people would just have one more revolution or one more war to be quickly forgotten!

 

[Arakhor]

The French create big dramas, true - all of Napoleonic history for one thing - but the Germans have them comprehensively beaten. After all, Hollywood simply cannot shut up about World War II.

 

[bombshoo]

It led to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and creation of the Fifth, Charles De Gaulle's presidency, the creation of the OAS, the civil war in France and Algeria and all of De Gaulle's subsequent actions as President. That's pretty damn important in the long-term.

Not to mention producing the greatest thriller of all time in The Day of the Jackal. That alone makes it important, since that book rocks.

Algerian independence was important, but it doesn't seem to me to be particularly special as a case of decolonization as it mostly affected only France and Algeria, not so much independence for anyone else. Difficult to say when we don't know what OP means.

 

[innonimatu]

Algerian independence was important, but it doesn't seem to me to be particularly special as a case of decolonization as it mostly affected only France and Algeria, not so much independence for anyone else. Difficult to say when we don't know what OP means.

It had a huge influence throughout both Africa and the Arab world - and even Iran!

 

[bombshoo]

It had a huge influence throughout both Africa and the Arab world - and even Iran!

How? Most of the Arab world and French Africa was already independent by the time Algeria was given up.

 

[Karalysia]

Seriously, no love from anyone for the Central African Empire and the glorious Emperor Bokoussa I and II? Or Uganda and Idi Amin? Disappointing. Those two countries made the whole region interesting. Oh and Somalia and Said Barre.

Also the Democratic Republic of Conga and Mobuto Sese Seko and subsequent events.

 

[Dachs]

It led to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and creation of the Fifth, Charles De Gaulle's presidency, the creation of the OAS, the civil war in France and Algeria and all of De Gaulle's subsequent actions as President. That's pretty damn important in the long-term.

Not to mention producing the greatest thriller of all time in The Day of the Jackal. That alone makes it important, since that book rocks.

I fully endorse this post.

 

[cubsfan6506]

It led to the collapse of the Fourth Republic and creation of the Fifth, Charles De Gaulle's presidency, the creation of the OAS, the civil war in France and Algeria and all of De Gaulle's subsequent actions as President. That's pretty damn important in the long-term.

Not to mention producing the greatest thriller of all time in The Day of the Jackal. That alone makes it important, since that book rocks.

Only if you view the history of France as more important than the history of Africa.

 

[Tee Kay]

Only if you view the history of France as more important than the history of Africa.

Don't you know the exchange rate? African countries are trading at 54 African countries to one European country.

 

[Lord Baal]

I agree. And it's amazing how the french manage to create big dramas where other people would just have one more revolution or one more war to be quickly forgotten!

The French like to take things way too far. That's what makes them so awesome.

The French create big dramas, true - all of Napoleonic history for one thing - but the Germans have them comprehensively beaten. After all, Hollywood simply cannot shut up about World War II.

That's more a case of the US creating drama than Germany though.

Algerian independence was important, but it doesn't seem to me to be particularly special as a case of decolonization as it mostly affected only France and Algeria, not so much independence for anyone else. Difficult to say when we don't know what OP means.

Really? I suggest you look into this a little more.

Algeria's independence directly effected all of its neighbours; Morocco was obviously an immediate rival, Tunisia had to carefully balance the ambitions of the two to avoid allowing either to dominate the region, Libyan rebels quickly sought refuge in Algeria, almost leading to yet another Gaddafian war - which would have been as hilarious as every other war that nutjob has lost fought - Western Sahara received massive Algerian backing against Morocco and Mauritania, etc.. Algeria's military government also became a focal point for the hatred of Islamist groups that make Al Qaeda look placid. Algeria also did what no other country has ever done, to my knowledge; it successfully thwarted these fanatics, kicking them out of the country. Those that didn't die fled to Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan and even Iran. Doubtless many are now fighting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Then there's the effect that Algeria's independence had outside of the Arab world and Africa. The obvious place is France; but what you don't seem to realise is the Gaullist-OAS war had massive repercussions throughout all of Europe. The Gaullists had absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to the OAS who were hiding out in nations that were technically French allies; the most famous incident was the snatching of the OAS second-in-command from Rome in broad daylight by paratroopers loyal to De Gaulle, despite him enjoying the protection of the Italian government - NATO refused to take sides in the war, largely because they weren't sure who was going to win it - but there were plenty of others.

Then there's the effect on France's other colonies, such as French Guiana, and their new status under the Fifth Republic. De Gaulle's simultaneously awesome and destabilising pronouncements aimed at ending US dominance in Western Europe are still being felt today, and his veto of British entry into the Common Market is still viewed with a great deal of anger in Britain today. France also opened up to the Eastern Bloc far more under De Gaulle, who had always been friendly with Stalin, despite many of the Fourth Republic's leaders being socialists.

There's also the issue of organised crime. One of the first organisations to jump on De Gaulle's bandwagon was the Union Corse (Corsican Union), which is essentially the French Mafia. Before the Gaullist-OAS war the Union Corse was pretty much isolated to Corsica and a strip along France's Mediterranean coastline. In the civil war the OAS operated primarily out of Marseilles's underground, so the desperate Gaullists turned to the Union Corse for assistance. The result was that the Union effectively eliminated not just the OAS in Marseilles and other Mediterranean cities, but all the rest of their competition as well, by informing the French authorities that certain of their rivals were working with the OAS, which guaranteed the bloody end of any criminals unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity when French legionaires showed up to fight the 'OAS' in their midst. In the chaos of the civil war the Union was also able to spread its tentacles north to Paris, while simultaneously taking over the entire French heroin trade. They then began to export this cheap heroin to the US, helping heroin to become the drug of choice for American junkies.

Aside from the Union Corse, there are the OAS foot soldiers themselves, who, desperate to survive after they lost the civil war, became the world's deadliest bank robbers and jewel thieves, stealing tens of millions of francs in just a few weeks before disappearing into retirement in South America and elsewhere. Those that were unfortunate enough to be in Africa when the war was lost became mercenaries for the various organisations fighting it out there.

Algeria's independence had a far larger effect on a global scale than the independence of any other African nation. Arguably it had the greatest effect of any decolonisation effort, though Indo-China - ironically, another French failure - probably wins that competition. I don't know how you can think it had little effect outside of France and Algeria.

How? Most of the Arab world and French Africa was already independent by the time Algeria was given up.

Since when is that the only effect of decolonisation that matters?

Seriously, no love from anyone for the Central African Empire and the glorious Emperor Bokoussa I and II? Or Uganda and Idi Amin? Disappointing. Those two countries made the whole region interesting. Oh and Somalia and Said Barre.

Also the Democratic Republic of Conga and Mobuto Sese Seko and subsequent events.

I have a great deal of interest in all these chaps, especially the Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in general and in Uganda in particular, but I don't think they can compare in importance to the Algerian revolution.

I fully endorse this post.

Only if you view the history of France as more important than the history of Africa.

I kind of do, but I feel I've already illustrated how Algeria's independence was of huge importance outside of France and Algeria.

 

[bombshoo]

Really? I suggest you look into this a little more.

Algeria's independence directly effected all of its neighbours; Morocco was obviously an immediate rival, Tunisia had to carefully balance the ambitions of the two to avoid allowing either to dominate the region, Libyan rebels quickly sought refuge in Algeria, almost leading to yet another Gaddafian war - which would have been as hilarious as every other war that nutjob has lost fought - Western Sahara received massive Algerian backing against Morocco and Mauritania, etc.. Algeria's military government also became a focal point for the hatred of Islamist groups that make Al Qaeda look placid. Algeria also did what no other country has ever done, to my knowledge; it successfully thwarted these fanatics, kicking them out of the country. Those that didn't die fled to Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan and even Iran. Doubtless many are now fighting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Then there's the effect that Algeria's independence had outside of the Arab world and Africa. The obvious place is France; but what you don't seem to realise is the Gaullist-OAS war had massive repercussions throughout all of Europe. The Gaullists had absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to the OAS who were hiding out in nations that were technically French allies; the most famous incident was the snatching of the OAS second-in-command from Rome in broad daylight by paratroopers loyal to De Gaulle, despite him enjoying the protection of the Italian government - NATO refused to take sides in the war, largely because they weren't sure who was going to win it - but there were plenty of others.

Then there's the effect on France's other colonies, such as French Guiana, and their new status under the Fifth Republic. De Gaulle's simultaneously awesome and destabilising pronouncements aimed at ending US dominance in Western Europe are still being felt today, and his veto of British entry into the Common Market is still viewed with a great deal of anger in Britain today. France also opened up to the Eastern Bloc far more under De Gaulle, who had always been friendly with Stalin, despite many of the Fourth Republic's leaders being socialists.

There's also the issue of organised crime. One of the first organisations to jump on De Gaulle's bandwagon was the Union Corse (Corsican Union), which is essentially the French Mafia. Before the Gaullist-OAS war the Union Corse was pretty much isolated to Corsica and a strip along France's Mediterranean coastline. In the civil war the OAS operated primarily out of Marseilles's underground, so the desperate Gaullists turned to the Union Corse for assistance. The result was that the Union effectively eliminated not just the OAS in Marseilles and other Mediterranean cities, but all the rest of their competition as well, by informing the French authorities that certain of their rivals were working with the OAS, which guaranteed the bloody end of any criminals unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity when French legionaires showed up to fight the 'OAS' in their midst. In the chaos of the civil war the Union was also able to spread its tentacles north to Paris, while simultaneously taking over the entire French heroin trade. They then began to export this cheap heroin to the US, helping heroin to become the drug of choice for American junkies.

Aside from the Union Corse, there are the OAS foot soldiers themselves, who, desperate to survive after they lost the civil war, became the world's deadliest bank robbers and jewel thieves, stealing tens of millions of francs in just a few weeks before disappearing into retirement in South America and elsewhere. Those that were unfortunate enough to be in Africa when the war was lost became mercenaries for the various organisations fighting it out there.

Algeria's independence had a far larger effect on a global scale than the independence of any other African nation. Arguably it had the greatest effect of any decolonisation effort, though Indo-China - ironically, another French failure - probably wins that competition. I don't know how you can think it had little effect outside of France and Algeria.


Since when is that the only effect of decolonisation that matters?

No, no. I just had this whole question framed in my mind of what particular decolonization was the most important towards the entire process decolonization in general. I never said I didn't think Algeria wasn't important, or that it didn't have outside effects, just that it didn't have that many effects towards the process of decolonization of Africa as most of France's colonies were already gone by that time.

Just two different ways of looking at the question. I don't know why, I probably influenced by own thinking by my first post, but I just saw OP's question as the most important in terms of decolonization, not just in terms world affairs.

 

[innonimatu]

Algeria's independence directly effected all of its neighbours; Morocco was obviously an immediate rival, Tunisia had to carefully balance the ambitions of the two to avoid allowing either to dominate the region, Libyan rebels quickly sought refuge in Algeria, almost leading to yet another Gaddafian war - which would have been as hilarious as every other war that nutjob has lost fought - Western Sahara received massive Algerian backing against Morocco and Mauritania, etc.. Algeria's military government also became a focal point for the hatred of Islamist groups that make Al Qaeda look placid. Algeria also did what no other country has ever done, to my knowledge; it successfully thwarted these fanatics, kicking them out of the country. Those that didn't die fled to Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan and even Iran. Doubtless many are now fighting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Then there's the effect that Algeria's independence had outside of the Arab world and Africa. The obvious place is France; but what you don't seem to realise is the Gaullist-OAS war had massive repercussions throughout all of Europe. The Gaullists had absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to the OAS who were hiding out in nations that were technically French allies; the most famous incident was the snatching of the OAS second-in-command from Rome in broad daylight by paratroopers loyal to De Gaulle, despite him enjoying the protection of the Italian government - NATO refused to take sides in the war, largely because they weren't sure who was going to win it - but there were plenty of others.

Then there's the effect on France's other colonies, such as French Guiana, and their new status under the Fifth Republic. De Gaulle's simultaneously awesome and destabilising pronouncements aimed at ending US dominance in Western Europe are still being felt today, and his veto of British entry into the Common Market is still viewed with a great deal of anger in Britain today. France also opened up to the Eastern Bloc far more under De Gaulle, who had always been friendly with Stalin, despite many of the Fourth Republic's leaders being socialists.

There's also the issue of organised crime. One of the first organisations to jump on De Gaulle's bandwagon was the Union Corse (Corsican Union), which is essentially the French Mafia. Before the Gaullist-OAS war the Union Corse was pretty much isolated to Corsica and a strip along France's Mediterranean coastline. In the civil war the OAS operated primarily out of Marseilles's underground, so the desperate Gaullists turned to the Union Corse for assistance. The result was that the Union effectively eliminated not just the OAS in Marseilles and other Mediterranean cities, but all the rest of their competition as well, by informing the French authorities that certain of their rivals were working with the OAS, which guaranteed the bloody end of any criminals unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity when French legionaires showed up to fight the 'OAS' in their midst. In the chaos of the civil war the Union was also able to spread its tentacles north to Paris, while simultaneously taking over the entire French heroin trade. They then began to export this cheap heroin to the US, helping heroin to become the drug of choice for American junkies.

Aside from the Union Corse, there are the OAS foot soldiers themselves, who, desperate to survive after they lost the civil war, became the world's deadliest bank robbers and jewel thieves, stealing tens of millions of francs in just a few weeks before disappearing into retirement in South America and elsewhere. Those that were unfortunate enough to be in Africa when the war was lost became mercenaries for the various organisations fighting it out there.

Algeria's independence had a far larger effect on a global scale than the independence of any other African nation. Arguably it had the greatest effect of any decolonisation effort, though Indo-China - ironically, another French failure - probably wins that competition. I don't know how you can think it had little effect outside of France and Algeria.

Thanks, I generally knew that Algeria and Gaullism in France caused important changes in Europe, but didn't knew those details. You've convinced me to finally make some time to study recent french history!
Any goods sources you can recommend?