Defeating a tank with a spearman *is* realistic...

[zeeter]

Wow - this again.

1. To the person who said something about the psychological effects of seeing a tank for the first time. How do we know it's the first time they ever saw a tank? They don't have diplomats that may have seen it? There was never an open borders agreement? They never read a book? They just sit in their village and spin clay without a care for the rest of the world?

2. To the actual spear throwing part. After their first spear doesn't do squat to the tank, why would they keep using it? Wouldn't they find some other means to destroy the tank? Building a line of tank-stopping ditches? Building tank obstacles like the ones that were effective, but worthless in Czechoslavakia before WWII (the Germans just went around them)?

3. Though it has never been identified, I'm guessing that the Spearman is a legion sized unit, approx 6000 men - more with auxiliaries. I'm also guessing that the Tank unit is about 32 - 40 tanks. This is just based on the numbers, because any more and the tank unit would be way over 28 in STR. A tank fighting in a normal situation would blow everything to heck and the spearmen wouldn't have a chance. 6000 vs 32 would almost certainly have some sort of fighting chance in the right circumstances, though. Remember the Zulus. They were fighting well trained English Riflemen. At the battle which wasn't depicted in the movie (this Zulu army missed the real battle that day and went after the small engineering brigade just for blood) the Brits were anihilated. This was spearmen vs riflemen and cannons. Certainly if the spearmen can anihilate an army of English Riflemen and Cannons they would have some chance at beating a tank unit. A small chance, but a chance nontheless.

 

[Teshuvah]

In military terms the apc and crew could have killed that mob, but didnt want to massicer civilians. By the time someone pulled out the petrol bombs they were all over the apc. If it had been an M1 or a Challenger2 or whatever it would have been in the same situation - take the chance or repeat Bloody Sunday/ the incident in India's independence.

I'm pretty sure this conversation is about combatant vs combatant.

Given the order those apcs would have mowed all of those people down in a matter of seconds.

It wasn't a matter of the armor not being able to do it. It was a matter of the geneva convention if anything.


We don't have that in civ4 (do we?). My tanks can roll over cities all day long.


A spearman cant defeat a tank.

But again, it doesn't really matter, it's just a game. I'm merely here because some people actually believe they can...

 

[EdwardTking]

Spearmen killed large wild elephants by finding out which trails they follow, and digging vertical sided hole with upward pointing spikes in the bottom, and then covered that with branches and leaves. The animal walks or runs onto the branches and hey presto one captured impaled animal, and lunch

A tank can be trapped and destroyed in the same way. I dare say that the spearmen could design the hole properly, so that a tank coming from the appropriate direction ar previously observed speed lands on carefully placed hard rock boulders that shatter its tracks, so that it can not get out.

This merely uses gravity and the tank's own momentum to destroy it.

 

[xGBox]

Yeah, but that tactic is not limited to spearmen. That is more like some MacGyver stuff.

What you describe is a seemingly good way to disable a tank, but more in the lines of the question, is it only spearmen that can do it? I think you're talking about people with ingenuity, which spearmen could have been, but more in terms of general combat: They suck when paired against a tank.

 

[Teshuvah]

Spearmen killed large wild elephants by finding out which trails they follow, and digging vertical sided hole with upward pointing spikes in the bottom, and then covered that with branches and leaves. The animal walks or runs onto the branches and hey presto one captured impaled animal, and lunch

A tank can be trapped and destroyed in the same way. I dare say that the spearmen could design the hole properly, so that a tank coming from the appropriate direction ar previously observed speed lands on carefully placed hard rock boulders that shatter its tracks, so that it can not get out.

This merely uses gravity and the tank's own momentum to destroy it.

Good grief.


Do you know how big of a hole would need to be dug? A tank is not a lion.


I think you are jumping way out of the spectrum of the feasible conversation with that.


A spearman is not going to invade my area and dig a ditch and wait around for me to drive my tank in it.



This is about a spearman vs a tank. Not ancient combat engineers.

 

[xGBox]

A hole that would trap a tank needs to be:

Around 40 feet by length, about 15 feet by width, and needs to be about 10 to 15 feet deep to support most modern tanks, such as the M1 Abrams Battle Tank.

Uhh... screw that. I mean, you guys can do it.

 

[Stinson]

I think this all comes down to how often these out-dated military units defeat modern military units. If it happens just as much as any other defeat, then I will side with the "it's unrealistic" argument. But if it happens on rare/special occasions, then I will definately say that it is possible to seen out-dated units take out modern units, and some of the posted "what if" cases show that it is possible on rare occasions.

But you still have to remember that this is only a game. It's meant to be fun and competitive for everyone. It's not ment to be a perfect combact simulator that calculates each and every strength/weakness of a particular unit.

 

[MrUnderhill]

40mph tank + Spearman = Squish

People keep forgetting the issue of scale. A single unit in Civ could represent 1000 spearmen or just 1 tank (especially in Civ4, where strength and health also represent active units). And in my book 1000 healthy spearmen / 1 damaged tank =

This doesn't mean the spearmen would walk away unscathed, though. Just like it should, the tank would flatten quite a few spearmen before it went down, but in the end the spearmen would win the day.

 

[KingCruz]

A single unit in Civ could represent 1000 spearmen or just 1 tank

I agree. Except theres definately more than 1 tank in a unit. More like 5, 10, or 20.
Anyway, maybe the smart spearman stole some bazookas from the enemy caches and fired at the tank.

Bingo insta-victory right there!

 

[FordPrefectA]

If the spearmen had lots of cover, like in a forest, it is plausible.

 

[zeeter]

A hole that would trap a tank needs to be:

Around 40 feet by length, about 15 feet by width, and needs to be about 10 to 15 feet deep to support most modern tanks, such as the M1 Abrams Battle Tank.

Uhh... screw that. I mean, you guys can do it.

40 feet long? We don't need the whole tank to fit nicely in there. It just needs to be about ten feet long - the tank's front end falls in. can't get out. Can't fire, because both the machine guns and the turret are pointed to the ground.

 

[AmericanGeneral]

tank formations usually have infantry following and the tanks have a gunner on top, i seriously doubt a spearman could even get within 10 feet before getting cut down.

 

[AmericanGeneral]

40 feet long? We don't need the whole tank to fit nicely in there. It just needs to be about ten feet long - the tank's front end falls in. can't get out. Can't fire, because both the machine guns and the turret are pointed to the ground.

the guns can point up pretty far, its designed for urban combat to fire at buildings afterall.

 

[zeeter]

the guns can point up pretty far, its designed for urban combat to fire at buildings afterall.

The tank is stuck almost virtically in a ditch. I don't care how far up it can point; it's still nothing more than a static cannon at that point. Plus, the guys are now working sideways, furthur complicating matters.

 

[AmericanGeneral]

The tank is stuck almost virtically in a ditch. I don't care how far up it can point; it's still nothing more than a static cannon at that point. Plus, the guys are now working sideways, furthur complicating matters.

10 feet long? at that length it will easily get out by going in reverse anyways.

the gunners m2 can be pointed up or all 6 crew would get out and fire.

 

[RX2000]

If there was ever a real-life situation where one side had spearmen to fight against a modern tank, this is what would happen:

1. Spearmen have a chance winning against a tank if they were spread apart enough. Travelling in groups is stupid and makes it easier to take them out with the tank's cannon (which is really powerful).

2. However, if the tank was also equipped with a machine gun turret, this enables the soldiers to take out spearmen that the cannon doesn't. If the spearmen are very skilled at throwing, they can probably kill the person wielding the turret. But before they even do that, the turret would have already killed dozens of troops before they get him. If the machine gun was remote-controlled from the inside, you are screwed.

3. Soldiers in the tank are usually equipped with firearms. Sometimes they carry pistols, sometimes assault rifles. The fate of the spearmen also depends on whether their armor will also be able to withstand and maybe deflect bullets, and also how good they are at dodging bullets (which is highly unlikely they will, as armor from previous eras seem to weight a lot more).

4. If you had an army of spearmen, you would have a much better chance of winning against a single tank since you're trying to overwhelm it, but multiple tanks would be almost impossible and I really doubt a civilization would sacrifice so many soldiers in what is inevitable.

5. Spears do not even dent the armor of tanks. Spears are made of iron or copper. The armor of tanks are made of very strong heat-treated steel alloys. Other metals used are aluminum, magnesium, and titanium. The armor of tanks used in World War II were around 2 to 6 inches thick.

6. Tanks can be disabled by overturning it. If spearmen took all their crap off and just ran, they would have a chance of making it to the tank, under the range of the cannon and machine gun turret. Just let it be known that modern tanks weigh about 60 tons so good luck getting that many people to make it, more or less getting to lift over 60 tons. Also, tanks can move at around 40 miles per hour on good terrain also so overturning it is impossible if it is properly controlled by an engineer. If it was stuck in mud or some really bad position, then spearmen would have more of a chance.

7. Spearmen should not fight at night because they are giving themselves a disadvantage. They won't see as well, but modern tanks are equipped with night-vision technology and even lock-on features, and therefore can own any spearmen at any time of the day.

8. A cannon has the range of over 1,000 meters. The world record (maybe outdated?) for throwing a frisbee is only 406 meters of 1,333 feet. The number is much lower for javelins, so think of those numbers when you're going against a tank with a spear.

In conclusion, in a real-life situation where if spearmen fought a tank, a tank would absolutely obliterate spearmen practically 99% of the time.

Again, you seem to be talking about when a tank is at 100% fighting efficiency. ALL of the tank/spearman battles in civ where the spearman wins, its ALWAYS because the tank is already low on health. This indicates DAMAGE. Usually the tank would need to be at 1 hp (Civ 3) or very very low strength (like 5 or so in Civ 4.) This does NOT indicate a tank in top condition going 40 mph. This indicates a broken tank thats out of gas.

 

[zeeter]

10 feet long? at that length it will easily get out by going in reverse anyways.

the gunners m2 can be pointed up or all 6 crew would get out and fire.

Doubt it. Tanks are pretty heavy, and now it has gravity working against it. Not to mention a bunch of guys with spears banging on the hatch.

 

[Distraction]

You're all forgetting one important thing: These spearman aren't modern-day soldiers. They're throwbacks to the past armed with a pointed stick, not bombs. Even if the tank was horribly damaged, I'd rather put my money on the multi-ton engine of destruction then a bunch of crazed zealots with sticks.

 

[*Nosferatu*]

Just imagine the guy in front has a spear

 

[Eigenvector]

If there was ever a real-life situation where one side had spearmen to fight against a modern tank, this is what would happen:

3. Soldiers in the tank are usually equipped with firearms. Sometimes they carry pistols, sometimes assault rifles. The fate of the spearmen also depends on whether their armor will also be able to withstand and maybe deflect bullets, and also how good they are at dodging bullets (which is highly unlikely they will, as armor from previous eras seem to weight a lot more).

In conclusion, in a real-life situation where if spearmen fought a tank, a tank would absolutely obliterate spearmen practically 99% of the time.

As to number 3, A 30-06 round will penetrate 1/2 inch plate steel at 100 yards no problem - using FMJ rounds - I know I've done it the range with my 1903 Springfield. If you use AP ammo, it'll go through quite a bit more. The 12.5 mm gun on the turret of a modern tank will cut through that spearman like butter. the bronze breastplate that the spearman would have on combined with the shield would equal about 1/8 of an inch of metal at most - not to mention it's bronze not steel.