Defensive Pacts? Bug?

[Bruns87]

I'm not sure if anyone else has entered defensive pacts; but I was playing a game as the Spanish today (Prince, Continents, Huge) where I 9/10 civs were friendly to me and I had a defensive pact with Germany.

At the same time I had a Declaration of Friendship with Egypt.

Egypt then preceded to declare ware on Germany and I took a diplomacy hit with all civilization for declaring war on a civ that I had a friendship pact with... but really it was due to the defensive pact; bug or working as intended?

Any thoughts?

 

[fuzzatron717]

I did a defensive pact and DoF with the netherlands I didn't declare war with ethiopia at all when they attacked the netherlands no diplo hits so must be bugged.

 

[nefloyd]

It's not a bug. You had a pact that caused you to declare war; you had a friend you declared war on; you get diplomatic penalties for declaring war on a friend. You need to pay closer attention to your declarations of friendship and who you sign defensive pacts with. In fact, given the AI's propensity to declare war and backstab, I wouldn't enter into a defensive pact unless it was with a single AI who was my only Friend.

 

[fuzzatron717]

It's not a bug. You had a pact that caused you to declare war; you had a friend you declared war on; you get diplomatic penalties for declaring war on a friend. You need to pay closer attention to your declarations of friendship and who you sign defensive pacts with. In fact, given the AI's propensity to declare war and backstab, I wouldn't enter into a defensive pact unless it was with a single AI who was my only Friend.

I guess I should rearrange my words Okay DP and DoF with netherlands Ethiopia declares war on netherlands. Later Netherlands make treaty with ethiopia I did nothing through whole war no diplo hits the DP and DoF says it may cause diplo reprucions if you do not declare war on your allys enemy.

 

[nefloyd]

I guess I should rearrange my words Okay DP and DoF with netherlands Ethiopia declares war on netherlands. Later Netherlands make treaty with ethiopia I did nothing through whole war no diplo hits the DP and DoF says it may cause diplo reprucions if you do not declare war on your allys enemy.

So you were friends with Netherlands, and had defensive pact with Netherlands, and Ethiopia declared war on them? You wouldn't take any diplomatic penalty unless you were declared friends with Ethiopia. Unless you're sure your pact with Netherlands hadn't expired and you missed the update, well, not being forced into war with Ethiopia might be the bug, but you wouldn't take a relationship hit with Netherlands unless they came to you and asked you to honor the friendship by joining them in war (this is so rare though).

 

[unindel]

I had the same thing happen. I've been in a cold war with England (as the Netherlands) for a long time as my neighbor and they've been the lead of the game for most of it (ridiculously better starting island; it's an archipelago game).

Anyway, I'm finally starting to get her to like me a bit better by helping her out in wars (really I just wanted to make sure she didn't get too big so I had to goto war myself) and generally trading well with her and she finally asks me to be friends while most of my fleet is off conquering the aztecs with some of hers. I'm a bit wary since a while back one of the other civs told me their spies found out she was planning to attack me but I figured the DoF would help stave off her attack even longer (I wanted to at least wait til I had ironclads to fight her ridiculous number of Ships of the Line... she had almost all the iron on the map so she could field at least 12 whereas I could only make 2 frigates).

So I DoF with her on her turn 262, then on my turn 263 I send out a newly constructed Sea Beggar from Amsterdam and notice a second fleet of hers with 5 Ships of the Line, a rifleman, knight, lancer, and two cannons just 5 tiles off the coast (but previously in my fog of war). I panic a little and start rerouting production from theatres to more Sea Beggars and get the idea to Defensive pact my only other friend, Sweden who gladly accepts, thinking that if England does go to war with me then Sweden can buy me enough time to get back from the Aztecs' area. Her very next turn (so her 263, she declares war and it's on). Later (like 3 turns later) I noticed that I had a diplomatic penalty with EVERY civ (including Sweden) for "declaring war on leaders I'd made DoF with"... I think what happened was that her fleet was going BY Amsterdam to nearby Sweden and I inadvertently took that to mean she was going to attack me and ended up defending sweden.

I'd be OK with this if it didn't sour my ties with Sweden as well since now they think I'm a backstabber. -_-

Summary (tl;dr): England offers to DoF me after most of the game disliking me since I was supporting her in wars. My next turn I see a big English navy I can't defend so I defensive pact nearby Sweden. England's next turn she declares on Sweden and I attack her automatically (wasn't clear at the time how I got into a war with her; I thought she just declared on me). I get a diplomatic penalty with every civ, including Sweden who I was supposed to be in a pact with

 

[Stilgar08]

To me it seems at least a bit broken:
Even if you have a DP with CIV A and you declare on CIV B because they DOW'd A, you get a penalty with everyone, even with A itself!
"You attacked a civ you were friends with?" Sorry, don't get it.. Immersion "zero"

Think about it: You get attacked and your DP-Partner fulfills its DP and then you think: They were friends! How in the world could he have done that? You fight our agressor so you're to blame? *doh*
I could understand if every "neutral" party gives you a minus for declaring, but especially your DP-partner shouldn't think the same way!

It is stuff like this that makes me think CiV is still too rough around the edges. It's not "elegant" and "light", it's sometimes clumsy and "detached" if you know what I mean...
For me taking care of these details make a good game a great game...

 

[ecki2k]

Experienced the same: Was playing Gandhi, going for a cultural victory. Had my Continent cleared, Friends with everyone on the other continent. All the slaughter on my continent was done before the new world met peacelover Gandhi with his 18 puppeted cities; kept strictly out of any wars overseas.

Near the End I signed a DP with Rome, just for the fun of it, and sure Rome got attacked by Spain. When asked to DOW on Spain, I did, good fellow that I am. Killed quite a few units, didn´t take cities.

Some turns later, war ends and Julius is pissed because I declared on Spain, which were such good old friends to him.

WTH?

Seems just not right. They backstabbed him, I lend a helping hand and get blamed for it.

Well, Julius didn´t live to see my cultural victory. Justice was delivered before. Damn you.

 

[Frosty_AUT]

Don't make defensive pacts. It's a useless feature that's implemented in a half-assed way. All it does is drag you into wars that you have no business in, and the AI will treat you like you started the whole mess.

 

[Miravlix]

Since I don't DoF everyone and their dog, cat, motherinlaw, mistress. Defense Pacts become a strategic tool.

It's just a matter of using them right according to how the game is coded, instead of this usual silliness of people wanting the game to be one way and refusing to accept how it works.

 

[Adjuvant]

Since I don't DoF everyone and their dog, cat, motherinlaw, mistress. Defense Pacts become a strategic tool.

It's just a matter of using them right according to how the game is coded, instead of this usual silliness of people wanting the game to be one way and refusing to accept how it works.

This is correct.

 

[avl8]

Is there any real benefits you get for signing Defensive Pacts?

Ive seen none atm, mb im wrong?

 

[AriochIV]

Is there any real benefits you get for signing Defensive Pacts?

Ive seen none atm, mb im wrong?

There's no real benefit. I think you might get a short-term diplomatic benefit with the partner civ, but it expires constantly and needs to be renewed, and doesn't seem to have any lasting benefit. It does not appear to deter other civilizations from declaring war on you, and it doesn't lessen the warmonger penalty for declaring war. It just takes the decision of whether to declare war out of your hands.

It's a useless feature.

 

[Big J Money]

Wow, I'm so glad for threads like this! Thanks guys. So to recap what I got out of it:

1) Not a bug: When you DOW an ex-friend because of a DP obligation, it makes sense that other civs get mad at you. You weren't wise in choosing your commitments.

2) Bug: The Civ that you are honoring your DP with is included in the above rule, which makes NO sense. (They should be exempt)

3) For both of the complications above that DPs cause, they give no useful benefits.

It would be nice to see a DP influence a civ who was considering war with someone to reconsider it. That would make it worth the risks above. Also it would be nice if the bug were fixed!

 

[TillianSwoard]

I think that many of the diplomatic reprecussions that DP bring about could be fixed if it changed it from party A declaring war on party B causes party C to declare war on party A when B and C have a defensive pact to party A declares war on both B and C when they are defensive pacted.

 

[binhthuy71]

Both Defensive Pacts and DoFs are so poorly implemented that I no longer sign either of them. The DoF is legitimatized extortion with no apparent benefit and the DP is simply yielding control over crucial game decision.

 

[Stilgar08]

I think that many of the diplomatic reprecussions that DP bring about could be fixed if it changed it from party A declaring war on party B causes party C to declare war on party A when B and C have a defensive pact to party A declares war on both B and C when they are defensive pacted.

Both Defensive Pacts and DoFs are so poorly implemented that I no longer sign either of them. The DoF is legitimatized extortion with no apparent benefit and the DP is simply yielding control over crucial game decision.

TillianSwoard got it absolutely right! I assume AI is too dumb to see the consequences, therefore the programmers blame you on fulfilling your contract...

DoF is very useful since the G&K-expansion, before you might have been right (Jumped into CiV just recently, since I'm a steam h8er). The Problem is you don't get the penalty from the party you declared on but from everyone, which makes no sense. That's what I meant when I said, CiV still feels clumsy and not thoroughly thought through from times to times...

...and it doesn't lessen the warmonger penalty for declaring war. It just takes the decision of whether to declare war out of your hands.
It's a useless feature.

You are right and it is wrong, that the game handles it the way it does... To be honest with you; I signed the DP hoping to get a diplomacy boost (nope!) and get drawn into a war without me having to declare (nope!) - And afterwards even my DP-comrade is pissed at me for helping him out.

 

[standingwolf]

i just had this happen to me too, and i think it's a bit unfair to accuse players of whining because the game isn't the way they want it to be. this was my first DP and so how was i know the logic behind it would be so stupid?

i did a declaration of friendship with the huns when i first settled their continent because i was in a vulnerable position and i wanted to buy some time. then the huns started attacking everybody and i became concerned about their rising power, and so i signed a defensive pact with ethiopia, who only had one city left. i assumed this would make attila think twice about attacking ethiopia. instead he seemed to have no idea about the DP, he attacks ethiopia, i'm told i've declared war on attila, and now everybody's mad at me, including ethiopia for my apparent treachery. MAYBE that all makes sense according to the way the game's coded, but it makes NO sense according to the usual rules of diplomacy.

I think that many of the diplomatic reprecussions that DP bring about could be fixed if it changed it from party A declaring war on party B causes party C to declare war on party A when B and C have a defensive pact to party A declares war on both B and C when they are defensive pacted.

exactly! this is what i thought would happen. if attila declares war on ethiopia, that forces him to declare war on me too, which means he's broken the DoF and he suffers the diplomatic penalties. a defensive pact just isn't defensive otherwise.

 

[GhostSalsa]

i did a declaration of friendship with the huns when i first settled their continent because i was in a vulnerable position and i wanted to buy some time.

Defensive pact flaws aside, declaring friendship with someone you regard as an imminent threat is hazardous. The hazard is a longstanding diplo penalty for doing something crucial to survival. Even without the pact you could have come across a critical strategic moment to declare war on the Huns and the penalty would be the same. I had exactly this happen in a recent game where I was afraid of England and needed to buy time before attacking. I got the diplo hit after the fact but I also conquered London and suddenly owned Chichen, FP, and Taj so I was like "lol whatever haters."

Declaring friendship or not with a nearby wolf represents a good underdog's dilemma that, having recently been on the painful side of, I don't support changing.

(Aside of course from a displayed timer for DOF expiration.)

 

[whyidie]

2) Bug: The Civ that you are honoring your DP with is included in the above rule, which makes NO sense. (They should be exempt)

5 minutes ago I would have agreed, then I thought what if a DoF mattered ? If so then what would Germany in OP think about the value of a DoF with you ? Yes you kept your word on the DP, but a DoF seems to have no value to you. You'll enter into a DoF when you don't really mean it.