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Deity 101 - Hatshepsut

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Benginal, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Intro

    This series is going to take a bit from the cookbook model and a bit from the university model. The goal is to get new people to give Deity a go and old hands to show how it's done.

    We'll play in 4 turnsets -- until turn 70, 110, 150, and finish. After each turnset we'll pick two saves, by vote, to play on with. Voting works as follows. Anybody -- people who submitted saves and lurkers alike -- will choose one save they want to see played from and two alternates. I'll then do my best to capture everybody's preferences. I'll also try to pick two saves that are in different positions. For example, a save at turn 70 that's in the middle of a chariot rush and a save that's getting ready for elepulting. In this way, different strategies can be compared throughout the entirety of the game and not just at the beginning. We can adjust the format as people have ideas for improvement.

    People can play from one or both of the saves. If you want to play from your own saves that's also welcome, but learning this way tends to be a little slower as comparison is trickier. Replays are encouraged, that is, feel free to submit three saves. Try out different strategies and then get comments on them. Reloads because you lost a fight you should have won or just missed the Oracle are frowned upon.

    The hope for this structure is that different areas of people's games can be improved. For example, I might pick up a 110 save getting ready for a cuir rush and by turn 150 have 9 horse archers and be almost finished with Lib. Then I can look at how @Fippy played from the same save and has 29 cuirs and be almost finished with Rifling and try and learn something. I'll use the first few posts of this thread to keep the saves organized.

    Deity 101 - Hatshepsut



    For the first installment in this Deity School series I've chosen one of my favorite leaders and a solid choice for people still learning Deity. Creative means free border pops, cheap libraries, and early Great Scientists. Spiritual means civic change abuse and cheaper temple happiness. The starting techs are lovely both because they're expensive and useful. War Chariots are great for attacking and fogbusting. All in all a forgiving leader that allows for a very fast start.

    Settings are standard. Normal speed, no huts no events, fractal map. Attached is an autosave -- I haven't done anything to the map. I've played the first 100 turns or so and confirmed the map is reasonable.

    Two very small spoilers:
    Spoiler :
    We share our land mass with at least two AIs. That is, we are not isolated or semi-isolated.

    Many forum games ensure that the resource required for the UU (horses here) is available. I have not ensured that this is the case.


    And the start.



    Let's talk opening moves and then see what turn-70 saves we can come up with.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
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  2. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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  3. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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  4. shpeka

    shpeka Warlord

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    What is the time schedule? I might give it a go, but I am really slow + gaming time is a precious commodity lately.
     
  5. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Good question. I favor something a little slower as we're all busy. How does this sound to start:

    September 14: turn 70 submissions due.
    September 21: Votes for round 2 saves due

    Interest will probably die out for the later turnsets so I might speed those up a bit. We'll see how things are looking when we get there.
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Great idea :)
    Cookbooks were always (very) interesting, i hope you get many players. I will play for sure.
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Probably SIP and beeline BW.
    Warrior can scout 1N to hunt for food.

    Moving on the spices for +1 commerce city tile likely isn't worth it :
    - delays settling by a turn ;
    - delays corn by another turn ;
    - gold tile provides ample commerce.

    With dry corn and gold, the capital is a little food poor.
    Make sure working the gold doesn't delay growth to size 3.
    Sharing the gold with a helper city would be great to let the capital grow.

    Very average start for RExing : capital does 8:hammers:/turn at size 3 working the corn, spices and gold (+9 with another mine instead of spices).
    --> chop, chop, chop. Maybe chop in diagonales, keeping in mind that forests help regrowth in cardinal directions.

    Oracle start ? Not an Oracle start ? Depends whether or not there are good city spots to secure around us.
     
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  8. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Not really like the Oracle at first glance, good commerce obv. but will be low production (corn not wet, gold only +1 for settlers and workers).
    So there should be plenty better stuff to do, also no myst starter or needed with Cre.
     
  9. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    Awesome idea. If I had more time available, I would definitely play along. Will be watching with interest!
     
  10. sweetjohn33

    sweetjohn33 Chieftain

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    Hello, I may play along but am in the middle of another game atm (and I've never won a legit game on deity before), but I'll see what I can muster, and learn from everyone else's games! Thoughts from the start would be that it looks like we have coast to the east and jungle to the northeast, with a river up in the north. So probably SIP and explore west/southwest with the warrior? Border pops might reveal if there's even room for a good city spot in the north before the jungle starts.
     
  11. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal

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    Great initiative. I'll probably join in over the weekend as I struggle on Deity.

    BICs advice for SIP looks good.
    Will move warrior 1 SE on his way South as north is jungle and not interesting for now. Fogbust north with next warrior. Mining, BW, AH, in that order.
     
  12. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    SIP seems like the best option. BIC gave some pretty compelling reasons against settling on the spices. The only other settling options that makes sense are the blue circle and 1NW or 1W. The computer likes to recommend coastal settling even when there's no seafood. And we don't have fishing. And a later city site could take any seafood that does exist. And we want to stay inland against deity AIs in order to secure as much land as we can. In fact, moving even farther in land is attractive as it secures us slightly more space and allows for maybe finding food. But it delays the settle, delays the corn, and wastes a forest. I think SIP is the best option.

    Having the warrior make a counterclockwise loop around the settler makes sense. We'll want to look for settling spots nearby, on the river we're on if possible. Not sure what the best first move is. Could see any of 1NE, 1N, or 1NW being reasonable options. My gut is to move the warrior 1NW to see if there's food on the river up there we might settle towards. But this puts the warrior farther west in the ccw loop than I'd like him. Probably worth the chance we learn about food, though.

    With all the trees is there any other reasonable tech path than Mining -> BW. Our hand seems entirely forced. Is there anything else that might even be considered? We'll need to chop a lot with so few strong worker/settler tiles to work.

    Forest growth is linearly more likely for every forest sharing a full side, but not a diagonal, so chopping in a checkerboard is best. If a neighboring forest tile has a road on it that doesn't matter. Rivers also don't matter -- forests can spread across rivers as easily as not.

    How would the oracle fit in. Right away after BW? Try to fit in AH, Writing, or Pottery first? What would we take? Monarchy seems reasonable since the city will be very cottageable and we'll want to grow it early. MC doesn't seem particularly useful. Although the gold makes the happiness bonus from the forge worth something and running an early engineer to potentially rush the Pyramids would be cool.
     
  13. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    I would simply always advice against the Oracle with this start and leader :)

    Sometimes it might work, more often probably not..but it's never a good play.
    Cre makes for easier starts, gold, river & forests support bw, pottery and writing.
    +1 early happy as well.

    Afterwards maths or Alpha look good, on deity probably maths to further support development and hope for alpha trade.
    So where does Oracle fit in, easy answer for me..nowhere ~~
    It's a good wonder for a) HoF type of games and b) poor starts with ideally having myst already, where it's expected that without a bigger free tech we might fall behind. Here we have quiet the opposite.
     
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  14. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    SiP gives just faster everything.. then tech mining BW with the diagonal chop (fullside gives a bonus to regrowth! I Did not know that.. thought it affected all neighboring tiles)

    What is the trade off from going for oracle? If we even can get it?

    Will delay the 3rd city.. and most importantly the AH tech..

    I suggest using the extra commeres the gold gives to pick up "unnecessary tech" AH instead.. locate those horses and secure it with a cre city.
    IMO having access to war chariots opens the game up much more than having a tech lead.

    AH also opens up writing.. so you can still get a reasonable fast scientist if the AH draws a dead.
     
  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Oracle : not here.
    Sorry for mentionning the wonder, I didn't think it would spiral.
    The gold tile got me triggered, since it makes it relatively easy to get to Priesthood. (Arguably, the Oracle is better suited for commerce poor starts, since it helps convert hammers into science. Anyway you look at it, it's best suited for starts that require only a minimal number of ancient techs (Agriculture, go!))
    However, you just don't have enough production with this capital to afford the wonder.
    And the commerce from the gold can be used to get to the classical era just the standard way.

    Better piece of advice from my initial post was to get a city settled somewhere 2N of the gold, so as to relieve the capital from working it.
    Capital won't ever grow if it works the gold non-stop.
    City that works the gold can : build granary, settler, worker, eventually stagnate at happy cap.
    City that doesn't can : grow.
     
  16. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I'm afraid someone will post a winning position on T70 with this leader+start. :queen:
     
  17. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    A winning position has already been posted on turn 0. :egypt:
     
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  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Afraid ? Have a go, make it work !

    I played this some other day. Here's my position on t70 :
    Spoiler :








    Kind of a waste to go Alphabet, methinks. Great way to lose a tech lead, unless it really is beelined (which it wasn't).
    Lost the marble + corn spot to Zara and some floodplains along the way.
    Nothing fantastic but a decent position otherwise. Cities are too small, not enough granaries.
    Rome is a danger and needs to go. No metal claimed.


    I might replay these turns. In this case, I'd aim at having a better landgrab to the West.
    Also, better infrastructure set up.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Well, seems like the obvious strategy ;) needs a more accurate execution than what I was able to pull off.

    T70
    Spoiler :

    Good:
    • I have 14 WCs
    • Zara is going to shrine his holy city soon I hope (has SH, Oracle)
    Bad:
    • Diplo with JC is bad because of the way I settled (-2 close borders :mad:)
    • I can't declare on Zara yet due to that, he would bribe JC on me very likely
    Need to gift a city and need to find a way to be able to beg something from JC, which might mean I need to get alpha from Zara (have maths on him). JC has a stack of praets in Arretium, if he declares on me it's gg I think. I'm disgusted at the way I played, but it might turn out OK if the next few turns go favorably. Not planning to re-play, so I guess I'll just submit this.

    If someone can pull off a similar strategy and be immune to early JC declaration I think the rest of the game is more of a formality.

    Civ4ScreenShot0455.JPG
     

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  20. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    T70:

    Write-up:
    Spoiler :


    Turn 0:
    Warrior 1NW
    SIP

    Turn 1-4
    Warrior moves ccw
    Hold off on Tech

    Turn 5
    Still haven't met anybody
    Start Mining

    Turn 6
    Mining (66/84)

    Turn 8
    BW

    Turn 9
    Meet JC (still in Tribalism)
    Find Marble on River

    Turn 11
    Meet Isabella
    Find border of Zara - his second city has 8 tiles between it and Thebes

    Turn 13
    First lion spotted -- down South near a Spanish Scout
    JC converts to BW

    Turn 15
    Meet Frederick
    Spanish scout killed the lion, move off the river forested hill to explore the South
    Start on Warrior 1
    Start on Corn Farm
    Working 2F1H1C spices

    Turn 16
    Meet Qin
    Putting EP on Zara
    Everybody is at least cautious with each other
    Izzy in Buddhism
    Hinduism founded but nobody is in it and Holy City is unknown
    Find Ivory down South
    Barb Warrior wandering around

    Turn 17
    Zara converts to Hinduism
    Immediate -3 between his and Izzy, both ways
    Qin converts to Slavery

    Turn 20
    Hiding from Barbs continues
    Injured Qin scout in northern jungle suggests recently killed barb
    So many AI units everywhere suggests Archery isn't necessary
    Worker moves to Gold Hill
    Thebes works 5F Corn

    Turn 21
    Thebes to Size 2, addes bakt 2F1H1C spices
    Worker starts Gold

    Turn 24
    BW in
    Start AH
    Convert to Slavery
    Best unit
    Spain: Archer
    Ethiopia: Archer
    Rome: Archer
    China: Archer
    Germany: Archer
    No wonders built
    Everybody still cautious or pleased

    Turn 25
    Thebes gets a border pop, find fish in Eastern Ocean
    Gold finished
    Spend this turn on Corn and Spices to grow to size 3 this turn, switching to Gold would mean growth in two turns
    Worker moves to 1N of Gald to chop. Can then move 1SE and 1SE and chop there as well.

    Turn 26
    Grow to Size three, working Corn, Gold, 2F Spices
    Warrier 1 complete, heads NE to look for Gold food
    Worker starts chopping

    Turn 28:
    Switch to Settler and chop

    Turn 29:
    Worker moves 1SW
    Settler switches back to Warrior 2

    Turn 30
    Find Cows north of Thebes
    AH in 2 Two Turns
    Warrior 2 done, switch to Settler full time (in 9 turns)
    3 warriors now complete
    Warrior 1 SW on forested hill
    Warrior 2 Up north protecting Cows
    Warrior 3 heading NW to forested hill above those cows

    Turn 31
    JC settles on Elephants

    Turn 32
    AH in
    Start on Writing -- lots of neighbors nearby for OB, cheap libraries, chopping/farms before Cottages
    Horses 4S of Thebes
    Finish Chop
    Potential dotmap



    Turn 33
    Worker 1SW

    Turn 36
    Chop into settler (97/100) 3F + 5H + 20H

    Turn 37
    OF into worker 3F + 30H
    Settler moves to settle on Spices 4W3S of capital -- will be connected to Thebes by river
    Worker moves to spices 1SW of capital

    Turn 38
    Switch to Warrior in capital, still working Gold, Corn, 2F1H1C spices
    Capital at 10/26 +3



    Turn 40
    Memphis founded on spices
    Memphis starts on Worker, working FP
    Chop into Worker

    Turn 41
    Overflow in to Settler in Thebes
    Worker 2 moves to 1SE of Capital to chop
    Worker 1 moves to 1E of Memphis to road and then farm Wheat
    Open Borders with Zara hoping for Hinduism
    Open Borders with Rome hoping for positive relations

    Turn 42
    Switch to Warrior (3 turns) in Thebes
    Turn off Slider

    Turn 43
    Slider back to full
    Pottery in 4 turns
    Chop finished into worker and the OF next turn into Settler

    Turn 45
    Worker 2 moves to 2S of Thebes to Chop
    Warrior 3 finished and moves NW
    Thebes to Settler for OF

    Turn 46
    Thebes to Library

    Turn 47
    Pottery in
    Start on Aesthetics, turn off Slider
    Switch to Granary in Thebes
    IBT: Fred converts to Judaism

    Turn 48
    Chop into Settler in Thebes

    Turn 49
    Move worker to 2E of Thebes to chop

    Turn 50
    Unsure about optimal granary build
    Switch to Granary for 1 turn to let Thebes grow to size 4
    Worker 1 finishes on Memphis farm and starts road to Rome

    Turn 51
    Swith back to Settler in Thebes
    Stonehenge built in a faraway land (that's the first wonder completed)
    Julius C adopts Judaism! Zara is the founder of and currently in Hinduism, but Judaism is also from Ethiopia -- might Zara switch?
    Slider back to full for Aesthetics -- still no libraries in, but I have enough gold stockpiled to finish it

    Turn 53
    Memphis finishes worker and starts on Library
    Thebes OFs into Library

    Turn 54
    Qin converts to Buddhism (Izzy's religion)
    Thebes 2-pop whips Granary

    Turn 55
    Thebes switches back to Library

    Turn 56
    Izzy demands I stop trading with JC, I decline. She drops to annoyed with me.
    Buddhism has spread in Memphis.
    Heliopolis founded to clam Corn and Marble
    Thebes starts on Barracks while growing
    Memphis switches to Granary

    Turn 59
    Hindusim spreads in Thebes - Scared to switch because of JC, though

    Turn 60
    Zara now pleased with me

    Turn 64
    All three cities have Hinduism

    Turn 67
    Aesth it, start on Alphabet, Turn slider off



    Screenshots:

    Spoiler :











     

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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017

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