Deity ABC's - Achieving Better Consistency
- Thread starter Berks
- Start date
Hi BiC,
No need to feel bad about posting criticism - best way for me to learn
Glad you decided to post a shadow to save me the trouble, if I failed my defence the third time, I was going to try a no GLH approach.
I decided to take a look at your saves and compare a few key areas between them and my closest save:
1600BC - GLH
Cities: 2, 1 Settler
Workers: 2
Pop: 6
Commerce: 19
Expenses: 6
Granaries: 0
Cottages: 0
1520BC - No GLH
Cities: 3, 1 Settler
Workers: 3
Pop: 11
Commerce: 29
Expenses: 10
Granaries: 2
Cottages: 3
Way behind here, does the wonder help me catch up??
900BC - GLH (I played 4 turns on my save, ignoring the red fist, 800BC numbers in brackets)
Cities: 4, 1 Settler (6)
Workers: 2
Pop: 12 (17)
Commerce: 51 (69)
Expenses: 20 (29)
Net: 31 (40)
Granaries: 3
Libraries: 0
Cottages: 3
800BC - No GLH
Cities: 6
Workers: 4
Pop: 22
Commerce: 58
Expenses: 31
Net: 27
Granaries: 5
Libraries: 4
Cottages: 8
We can see that your save has way more infrastructure and development, but not as much commerce. I also note you have met more AI, and have more opportunities for trading Aest + Alpha.
@ Fippy - I think BiC meant that not getting Myst + Masonry = faster Writing = faster Aest + Alpha = more trading opportunities?
I think BiC would catch up in commerce as his cottages will mature earlier, and I will have to waste pop and hammers on Granaries and Libraries.....
As I had to waste 10 turns whipping Galleys, I think we can't really compare further down the road, unless Genghis also declares on you. In your save, Genghis has not declared, but has only met you though.....
Be interested in some thoughts on the above.
As for the next round, I am busy the next two days, might have time for a round on Thursday night.
No need to feel bad about posting criticism - best way for me to learn
Glad you decided to post a shadow to save me the trouble, if I failed my defence the third time, I was going to try a no GLH approach.
I decided to take a look at your saves and compare a few key areas between them and my closest save:
1600BC - GLH
Cities: 2, 1 Settler
Workers: 2
Pop: 6
Commerce: 19
Expenses: 6
Granaries: 0
Cottages: 0
1520BC - No GLH
Cities: 3, 1 Settler
Workers: 3
Pop: 11
Commerce: 29
Expenses: 10
Granaries: 2
Cottages: 3
Way behind here, does the wonder help me catch up??
900BC - GLH (I played 4 turns on my save, ignoring the red fist, 800BC numbers in brackets)
Cities: 4, 1 Settler (6)
Workers: 2
Pop: 12 (17)
Commerce: 51 (69)
Expenses: 20 (29)
Net: 31 (40)
Granaries: 3
Libraries: 0
Cottages: 3
800BC - No GLH
Cities: 6
Workers: 4
Pop: 22
Commerce: 58
Expenses: 31
Net: 27
Granaries: 5
Libraries: 4
Cottages: 8
We can see that your save has way more infrastructure and development, but not as much commerce. I also note you have met more AI, and have more opportunities for trading Aest + Alpha.
@ Fippy - I think BiC meant that not getting Myst + Masonry = faster Writing = faster Aest + Alpha = more trading opportunities?
I think BiC would catch up in commerce as his cottages will mature earlier, and I will have to waste pop and hammers on Granaries and Libraries.....
As I had to waste 10 turns whipping Galleys, I think we can't really compare further down the road, unless Genghis also declares on you. In your save, Genghis has not declared, but has only met you though.....
Be interested in some thoughts on the above.
As for the next round, I am busy the next two days, might have time for a round on Thursday night.
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Lain
King
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2011
- Messages
- 718
Just to finish what I started. Brennus game.
A lot of good stuff has been already said regarding the Washington game. Don't have much to add there right now.
Is there an overview somewhere regarding when different AI will vote for your victory? I think some do so at "Pleased" already. Kind of important information.
Spoiler :
A lot of good stuff has been already said regarding the Washington game. Don't have much to add there right now.
Is there an overview somewhere regarding when different AI will vote for your victory? I think some do so at "Pleased" already. Kind of important information.
Good job Lain!
BiC - random thought here - your empire has a 'lower peak' research wise, so maybe in your situation, we should aim for a medieval war, hitting earlier before our research begins to stagnate. With GLH, I have a 'higher peak' research wise, so maybe a later war makes more sense? Gives us more time to develop infrastructure and population. Does this idea make sense, or am I going crazy?
Round 7 -50AD
T100: Make the AH + Poly trade with Sury. I have horses in range. Turn on research, MC in 6.
T101: Pacal demands gold, I refuse. Manage to trade him Fish for Sugar.
T104: My scouting workboat dies to a barb galley right near Sury's borders, LOL. I beg 40 gold from Justin.
T105: MC in. Trade it to Justin for Currency + 55G, as Sury doesn't have Currency yet. Trade MC to Sury for Math + Mono.
GS pops, keeping him idle.
Neither Justin or Sury have Drama or Calendar yet. I decide to research Calendar next, to use as trade bait and open up a possible Optics bulb.
Pacal is super advanced, already has Machinery + Drama + Calendar. GK is somewhat backwards, but still has several techs on me.
Up to 4 workers now, going to get at least 2 more.
Trade Clam to Pacal for Dye, cool that he will trade resources even at Annoyed.
T106: Trade Currency to Sury for Monarchy. Revolt to OR and HR. OR cost an extra 4 GPT, but almost all cities are on infrastructure builds. Need IW really badly now though, lots of jungle to cottage.
T107: Sury got Calendar. Decide to switch to Drama – will take 4 turns. Going to use a Philo bulb.
T108: Justin built AP
I vote for him.
Genghis will talk, wants Mono + Aest for peace. I decide to wait, I don't think he can get trade routes with anyone else while we are at war. I'm trying to kill a fishing boat of his to get some more warscore too.
T109: Justin is researching Philo!
T111: Drama in. Took peace with Genghis the turn before, I decide to OB with him, I have 2 cities with domestic trade routes.
T112: Med in, bulb Philo. Sury already has it as well now though. Trade Drama to Genghis for IW + PH. Want Compass next, cheap Harbours + trading. Need 8 turns though.
T113: Sell Drama to Sury for 140G – I can make it to Compass in 4 now.
T117: Compass in. Stop here.
Round 8 Plan
I can get CoL + Calendar + 55g for Compass. Probably sell Alpha to GK for 90g as well.
Have 7 workers and 8 cities. 9th Settler on the way to Iron site. Started cottaging as much as possible.
144 commerce – 94 from trade routes. 74 expenses, more once I settle last city.
Lots of infrastructure to build, Forges + Hindu buildings. Think the priority is Hindu buildings first, then Forges. Whip away everything but cottages.
Have enough happy now, probably should hook up Pigs to get another healthy.
Tech – I am contemplating a hard beeline to Gunpowder, trade for Engineering, then double bulb Chemistry + self tech Steel? With hindu hammers and lots of food, should have no trouble whipping out a good army to take over my island?
Genghis will be behind, but he should have a lot of production. Not sure he is a better target.
Maybe I could go straight for Engineering instead. Trebs + Pikes would hold up very well vs Knights, plus with Cha and either Vassalage or Theo, I could get CRII Trebs out the gate.
Third plan seems to be Lib – I think I am way too far behind for this race though.
Some input would be great, this is the part of the game where I start to lose control.
BiC - random thought here - your empire has a 'lower peak' research wise, so maybe in your situation, we should aim for a medieval war, hitting earlier before our research begins to stagnate. With GLH, I have a 'higher peak' research wise, so maybe a later war makes more sense? Gives us more time to develop infrastructure and population. Does this idea make sense, or am I going crazy?
Round 7 -50AD
T100: Make the AH + Poly trade with Sury. I have horses in range. Turn on research, MC in 6.
T101: Pacal demands gold, I refuse. Manage to trade him Fish for Sugar.
T104: My scouting workboat dies to a barb galley right near Sury's borders, LOL. I beg 40 gold from Justin.
T105: MC in. Trade it to Justin for Currency + 55G, as Sury doesn't have Currency yet. Trade MC to Sury for Math + Mono.
GS pops, keeping him idle.
Neither Justin or Sury have Drama or Calendar yet. I decide to research Calendar next, to use as trade bait and open up a possible Optics bulb.
Pacal is super advanced, already has Machinery + Drama + Calendar. GK is somewhat backwards, but still has several techs on me.
Up to 4 workers now, going to get at least 2 more.
Trade Clam to Pacal for Dye, cool that he will trade resources even at Annoyed.
T106: Trade Currency to Sury for Monarchy. Revolt to OR and HR. OR cost an extra 4 GPT, but almost all cities are on infrastructure builds. Need IW really badly now though, lots of jungle to cottage.
T107: Sury got Calendar. Decide to switch to Drama – will take 4 turns. Going to use a Philo bulb.
T108: Justin built AP
I vote for him.Genghis will talk, wants Mono + Aest for peace. I decide to wait, I don't think he can get trade routes with anyone else while we are at war. I'm trying to kill a fishing boat of his to get some more warscore too.
T109: Justin is researching Philo!
T111: Drama in. Took peace with Genghis the turn before, I decide to OB with him, I have 2 cities with domestic trade routes.
T112: Med in, bulb Philo. Sury already has it as well now though. Trade Drama to Genghis for IW + PH. Want Compass next, cheap Harbours + trading. Need 8 turns though.
T113: Sell Drama to Sury for 140G – I can make it to Compass in 4 now.
T117: Compass in. Stop here.
Round 8 Plan
I can get CoL + Calendar + 55g for Compass. Probably sell Alpha to GK for 90g as well.
Have 7 workers and 8 cities. 9th Settler on the way to Iron site. Started cottaging as much as possible.
144 commerce – 94 from trade routes. 74 expenses, more once I settle last city.
Lots of infrastructure to build, Forges + Hindu buildings. Think the priority is Hindu buildings first, then Forges. Whip away everything but cottages.
Have enough happy now, probably should hook up Pigs to get another healthy.
Tech – I am contemplating a hard beeline to Gunpowder, trade for Engineering, then double bulb Chemistry + self tech Steel? With hindu hammers and lots of food, should have no trouble whipping out a good army to take over my island?
Genghis will be behind, but he should have a lot of production. Not sure he is a better target.
Maybe I could go straight for Engineering instead. Trebs + Pikes would hold up very well vs Knights, plus with Cha and either Vassalage or Theo, I could get CRII Trebs out the gate.
Third plan seems to be Lib – I think I am way too far behind for this race though.
Some input would be great, this is the part of the game where I start to lose control.
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Lain
King
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- Jun 24, 2011
- Messages
- 718
It might be a boring suggestion, but I would just rush Justi with Cuirs. It's a bit late already though, 50 AD.. should still be doable. War with Genghis Khan obviously slowed you down a bit.
Not sure about some tech choices. MC, Drama, Compass... hmm. Would definitely trade for CoL (+Calendar if you can) now and beeline Civil Service. But most importantly, switch into Caste + Pacifism and pump out Great Scientists. Otherwise Lib is definitely gone.
Give the 2nd Fish to New York and grow it to size 10+. Get a Great Something out of Washington. Should take 5-6 turns with Caste+Pacifism. Start a Golden Age with that. Switch into Bureaucracy. Starve Great Scientists from Washington + New York. Possibly one Great Merchant from Washington. Depending on GPP situation, switch back into Slavery at the end of the golden age. Or stay a bit longer, one turn of Anarchy later won't kill you.
You want to attack in ~30 turns. AP buildings can be chopped if you want, but they are really not that important. I often don't even build them if I go for Cuirs. I want to hit ~600 AD, so with opportunity costs etc not worth it. Taj Mahal is also not worth it when going for Cuirs. Put those hammers into 6-7 Elephants instead. Slightly off topic, but I see it so often.
Only Granaries, Barracks and Forges are needed. I often whip the Forges veery late, after the golden age, 10-15 turns before attacking maybe. Slow-building them in Caste System.
I would advise most of that, even if you choose to go for cannons. It's really awkward to actually get to a position where you can bulb Chemistry. Feudalism, Machinery, Guilds, Engineering... people won't trade that for a loong time. So it's probably still better to go Paper->Education->Gunpowder, backfill and maybe lib chemistry instead. Only difference: if going cannons, there is time for some more infrastructure, so nothing wrong with AP buildings. But keep in mind that you might defy a AP resolution when you attack and will just lose the hammers anyway.
Whipping everything into the ground to get AP buildings, Forges, Barracks, Stables... is not really advised imho. Your whole empire benefits from a golden age, let the cities reach their potential. More workers could have been good, especially being EXP. There is a lot of jungle to be chopped. 20 cottages by 1 AD would be good on a map like this. So much green land.
Definitely Caste+Pacifism immediately, though. Let New York grow with the 2nd Fish before the golden age. It was whipped quite heavily
.
Generally you are in a reasonable position though and with some careful play it can be converted into a successful attack, I am sure
Not sure about some tech choices. MC, Drama, Compass... hmm. Would definitely trade for CoL (+Calendar if you can) now and beeline Civil Service. But most importantly, switch into Caste + Pacifism and pump out Great Scientists. Otherwise Lib is definitely gone.
Give the 2nd Fish to New York and grow it to size 10+. Get a Great Something out of Washington. Should take 5-6 turns with Caste+Pacifism. Start a Golden Age with that. Switch into Bureaucracy. Starve Great Scientists from Washington + New York. Possibly one Great Merchant from Washington. Depending on GPP situation, switch back into Slavery at the end of the golden age. Or stay a bit longer, one turn of Anarchy later won't kill you.
You want to attack in ~30 turns. AP buildings can be chopped if you want, but they are really not that important. I often don't even build them if I go for Cuirs. I want to hit ~600 AD, so with opportunity costs etc not worth it. Taj Mahal is also not worth it when going for Cuirs. Put those hammers into 6-7 Elephants instead. Slightly off topic, but I see it so often.
Only Granaries, Barracks and Forges are needed. I often whip the Forges veery late, after the golden age, 10-15 turns before attacking maybe. Slow-building them in Caste System.
I would advise most of that, even if you choose to go for cannons. It's really awkward to actually get to a position where you can bulb Chemistry. Feudalism, Machinery, Guilds, Engineering... people won't trade that for a loong time. So it's probably still better to go Paper->Education->Gunpowder, backfill and maybe lib chemistry instead. Only difference: if going cannons, there is time for some more infrastructure, so nothing wrong with AP buildings. But keep in mind that you might defy a AP resolution when you attack and will just lose the hammers anyway.
Whipping everything into the ground to get AP buildings, Forges, Barracks, Stables... is not really advised imho. Your whole empire benefits from a golden age, let the cities reach their potential. More workers could have been good, especially being EXP. There is a lot of jungle to be chopped. 20 cottages by 1 AD would be good on a map like this. So much green land.
Definitely Caste+Pacifism immediately, though. Let New York grow with the 2nd Fish before the golden age. It was whipped quite heavily
.Generally you are in a reasonable position though and with some careful play it can be converted into a successful attack, I am sure
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Hi Lain,
I don't like Cuirs here, I think Pacal beats us to Lib most times (he has Philo + CS on us already).
Your advice on civics and buildings is excellent though. I thought AP hammers would be a given, but I agree I will end up defying a resolution at some point.
Nonetheless, I tried the Cuirs route using your suggestions above, ended up getting MT at 800AD. Built a stack of 30 cuirs, but didn't attack until almost 1100AD. Justin ruined several trades I had lined up, meaning I got both Nat and Gunpowder later than I expected, and Pacal got edu right after I did and went straight for Lib....... so I was behind.
And naturally, Justin had his own Cuirs + airships, I got a city and wiped most of his offensive stack, but he then used AP to go for peace.
If you can get 600 AD cuirs from my 50 AD save, I would be happy to see a save......
I actually think my last round kinda sucked, I got screwed on the Philo bulb last round, Pacal and Sury didn't have Philo when I bulbed it, then the next turn, bam, they both had it! So I wasted a lot of beakers getting Drama, Med and Philo. And I couldn't get enough techs in trade.
Decided to repeat the 375BC - 50AD save, with the goal of setting up for Steel.
Major changes - got 9 workers instead of 6, and bulbed Machinery instead of Philo. Didn't build any hindu buildings - AP went to Buddhism this time anyway. Justin beelined Engineering instead of Nationalism. I met the other AI's earlier so was able to trade MC much earlier. Got earlier IW, CoL, Monarchy and Currency due to a huge trade with Genghis. Already in Caste + HR. Will have cottages up earlier.
Getting a GM, not a GS - Will go to the ToA city and use him to get enough Gold for Steel. Going to get 2 GS in secondary cities for Chemistry.
I like this save better, I am stocking gold, will power towards Gunpowder once I get Feudalism.
Next round will aim to get Forges + Harbours (expansive + GLH) in all cities and then head towards Guilds -> Gunpowder as soon as I can trade for Feudalism. Still have a monopoly on Compass, plus have other techs other leaders dont.
I don't like Cuirs here, I think Pacal beats us to Lib most times (he has Philo + CS on us already).
Your advice on civics and buildings is excellent though. I thought AP hammers would be a given, but I agree I will end up defying a resolution at some point.
Nonetheless, I tried the Cuirs route using your suggestions above, ended up getting MT at 800AD. Built a stack of 30 cuirs, but didn't attack until almost 1100AD. Justin ruined several trades I had lined up, meaning I got both Nat and Gunpowder later than I expected, and Pacal got edu right after I did and went straight for Lib....... so I was behind.
And naturally, Justin had his own Cuirs + airships, I got a city and wiped most of his offensive stack, but he then used AP to go for peace.
If you can get 600 AD cuirs from my 50 AD save, I would be happy to see a save......
I actually think my last round kinda sucked, I got screwed on the Philo bulb last round, Pacal and Sury didn't have Philo when I bulbed it, then the next turn, bam, they both had it! So I wasted a lot of beakers getting Drama, Med and Philo. And I couldn't get enough techs in trade.
Decided to repeat the 375BC - 50AD save, with the goal of setting up for Steel.
Major changes - got 9 workers instead of 6, and bulbed Machinery instead of Philo. Didn't build any hindu buildings - AP went to Buddhism this time anyway. Justin beelined Engineering instead of Nationalism. I met the other AI's earlier so was able to trade MC much earlier. Got earlier IW, CoL, Monarchy and Currency due to a huge trade with Genghis. Already in Caste + HR. Will have cottages up earlier.
Getting a GM, not a GS - Will go to the ToA city and use him to get enough Gold for Steel. Going to get 2 GS in secondary cities for Chemistry.
I like this save better, I am stocking gold, will power towards Gunpowder once I get Feudalism.
Next round will aim to get Forges + Harbours (expansive + GLH) in all cities and then head towards Guilds -> Gunpowder as soon as I can trade for Feudalism. Still have a monopoly on Compass, plus have other techs other leaders dont.
Lain
King
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2011
- Messages
- 718
Hi Berks, I accepted your "challenge" and will play a bit from your (former) 50 AD save. I believe that you were in a pretty good position (which would be even stronger if not for that Genghis declaration).
Only played to 200 AD so far, but I did so very carefully and can already see a lot of potential. Things I did:
- Traded Compass for Code of Laws with Justi
- Alpha with Genghis for 90 gold
- Did NOT trade Compass for Calendar with Sury. Because on second thought, Calendar is not helping us in any way. I also saw that he has Civil Service up for trade. So I saved Compass and started on my way towards Civil Service. I managed to trade for the last part of it.
- Sent many warriors that were not needed in small cities towards New York and Washington (potential +1 happy each from HR)
- Deleted 2-3 Galleys in foreign lands. 2-3 gold/turn saved from each.
- Put Seattle and Atlanta on worker-building-duty. Using EXP bonus from the mines, they can churn out workers quite quickly, even without Slavery, since...
- I switched into Caste+Pacifism immediately
- Start running merchants instead of forests/coast everywhere
- Re-negotiate some ressource deals as I go. Only Washington and New York really need those happy resources you are importing. By shuffling around warriors over there, I cancel the happy imports and pick up 12/11 gold from Pacal/Justi instead
- Beg for 50 gold from Justi when he got some gold
- Give Fish + Clam to New York and let it grow as much as possible. Washington is already at its happy cap
- Start preparing for Civil Service and irrigation spread by chopping the relevant jungle tiles
- Didn't make any other tech trades. Nothing I really need right now.
- Traded Metal Casting for 300 gold (!) from Genghis at some point
I made sure to save the game on each turn. So you can follow the progress I made pretty closely. 200 AD I started my golden age and switched into Bureaucracy. Empire is churning out 300 beakers now with barely any gold loss (thanks to resource trades, mainly). Building wealth or stuff like that is not needed.
Notice that Justi has Nationalism and is Friendly. He won't trade it yet since he is going for the Taj, but meanwhile I plan to get Paper+Education+Music. Trade for Nationalism with him, Lib MT and kick his butt.
600 AD might be a stretch, but I bet some nasty Cuirs attack can be pulled off here.
Only played to 200 AD so far, but I did so very carefully and can already see a lot of potential. Things I did:
- Traded Compass for Code of Laws with Justi
- Alpha with Genghis for 90 gold
- Did NOT trade Compass for Calendar with Sury. Because on second thought, Calendar is not helping us in any way. I also saw that he has Civil Service up for trade. So I saved Compass and started on my way towards Civil Service. I managed to trade for the last part of it.
Spoiler :
- Sent many warriors that were not needed in small cities towards New York and Washington (potential +1 happy each from HR)
- Deleted 2-3 Galleys in foreign lands. 2-3 gold/turn saved from each.
- Put Seattle and Atlanta on worker-building-duty. Using EXP bonus from the mines, they can churn out workers quite quickly, even without Slavery, since...
- I switched into Caste+Pacifism immediately
- Start running merchants instead of forests/coast everywhere
- Re-negotiate some ressource deals as I go. Only Washington and New York really need those happy resources you are importing. By shuffling around warriors over there, I cancel the happy imports and pick up 12/11 gold from Pacal/Justi instead
- Beg for 50 gold from Justi when he got some gold
- Give Fish + Clam to New York and let it grow as much as possible. Washington is already at its happy cap
- Start preparing for Civil Service and irrigation spread by chopping the relevant jungle tiles
- Didn't make any other tech trades. Nothing I really need right now.
- Traded Metal Casting for 300 gold (!) from Genghis at some point
I made sure to save the game on each turn. So you can follow the progress I made pretty closely. 200 AD I started my golden age and switched into Bureaucracy. Empire is churning out 300 beakers now with barely any gold loss (thanks to resource trades, mainly). Building wealth or stuff like that is not needed.
Notice that Justi has Nationalism and is Friendly. He won't trade it yet since he is going for the Taj, but meanwhile I plan to get Paper+Education+Music. Trade for Nationalism with him, Lib MT and kick his butt.
600 AD might be a stretch, but I bet some nasty Cuirs attack can be pulled off here.
Lain
King
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2011
- Messages
- 718
Well, this is the best I could do. This is my army at 760 AD. Too tired to play it out right now, but it should be pretty favorable.
Play it out a bit if you want. I took more saves aswell, in case you want to know something. Big things were:
- Education for Nationalism trade with Justi. Got burned on Music trade and had to self-tech it
- Lib MT 450 AD
- 2 GS during golden age helped with that ... bulbed Education 1x and Lib 1x
- Switch into Vassalage on the last turn of golden age...
- Kept running merchants with Caste+Pacifism in Washington... 4 more turns for a Great Merchant which I really wanted
- Revolt into Slavery+Theo after that... sent Great Merchant over to Pacal
- Slow-tech to Gunpowder (delayed) while whipping out 20 Horse Archers
- Skipped Barracks in most cities... usually I don't do that, but here I got a bit worried about Justi's tech pace (built the Taj Mahal and went crazy with the teching..). Vassalage+Theo also means 4 XP and that secures 2 promotions, being CHA...
- I refrained from declaring earlier, because now there will be 19 turns without AP peace vote. Happy times.
- Cataphracts will be slightly annoying...
- Declare on Justi right now and bribe Genghis on him aswell
- Take over the landmass and go to space or something
But as you can see, that's what's possible from your position at 50 AD.
PS: Leave the workers where they are when declaring. Trying to bait his stack into open field.
Spoiler :
Play it out a bit if you want. I took more saves aswell, in case you want to know something. Big things were:
- Education for Nationalism trade with Justi. Got burned on Music trade and had to self-tech it
- Lib MT 450 AD
- 2 GS during golden age helped with that ... bulbed Education 1x and Lib 1x
- Switch into Vassalage on the last turn of golden age...
- Kept running merchants with Caste+Pacifism in Washington... 4 more turns for a Great Merchant which I really wanted
- Revolt into Slavery+Theo after that... sent Great Merchant over to Pacal
- Slow-tech to Gunpowder (delayed) while whipping out 20 Horse Archers
- Skipped Barracks in most cities... usually I don't do that, but here I got a bit worried about Justi's tech pace (built the Taj Mahal and went crazy with the teching..). Vassalage+Theo also means 4 XP and that secures 2 promotions, being CHA...
- I refrained from declaring earlier, because now there will be 19 turns without AP peace vote. Happy times.
- Cataphracts will be slightly annoying...
- Declare on Justi right now and bribe Genghis on him aswell
- Take over the landmass and go to space or something
But as you can see, that's what's possible from your position at 50 AD.
PS: Leave the workers where they are when declaring. Trying to bait his stack into open field.
Hi Lain,
Looks great! I can see that my mid game needs a lot of work
I took a look at the saves. 200AD - you had 40 GPT from foreign trade! That is a huge boost to the economy.
You also got 2 GS really quickly from that point, as you said, which won you the Lib race (I think Pacal got Lib 550AD in my try)
I also think I might trade too often with the AI? You didn't grab Construction straight away, where as I would have. Also with Feudalism.
Interesting idea with no Barracks, would not have thought of that.
I played your save a bit, Justin did crack eventually. Lost a few cuirs, but nothing we cannot replace. I think Justin is the strongest AI on this map, so once we get him, should be an easy win.
Now I want to get my own save to that position!
Looks great! I can see that my mid game needs a lot of work
I took a look at the saves. 200AD - you had 40 GPT from foreign trade! That is a huge boost to the economy.
You also got 2 GS really quickly from that point, as you said, which won you the Lib race (I think Pacal got Lib 550AD in my try)
I also think I might trade too often with the AI? You didn't grab Construction straight away, where as I would have. Also with Feudalism.
Interesting idea with no Barracks, would not have thought of that.
I played your save a bit, Justin did crack eventually. Lost a few cuirs, but nothing we cannot replace. I think Justin is the strongest AI on this map, so once we get him, should be an easy win.
Now I want to get my own save to that position!
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Ugh. Super busy week at work plus been playing other games with friends, plus planning a handover of my D&D game, which required a ton of prepwork......... finally found some time for CIV today!
Round 8 - 560AD
T125: Get Guilds. Can only really trade for Optics. Teching Gunpowder now.
T126: Teched Med – Only Sury has Philo. Will now bulb Philo but hoping to trade for it before I finish Gunpowder.
T131: Trades! Guilds for Philo with Sury, Engineering with Justin, and Optics + HBR with Capac. I had to give Justin 295g but I still have 1400 left, should be enough to get to Steel.
T133: Gunpowder in, start Chem (8)
T135: Switch to Pacifism to get 2 GS out quicker.
T137: Pop 1st GS in Boston, bulb Chem, only need a few more beakers. NY will pop GS in 3, will use for GA.
T138: Chem in, start Steel (12). Trade Philo for Theo with HC.
Stop here.
Round 9 Plan
I will use the GS to pop a GA, tech Steel and slowbuild Pikes and Maces. Once Steel is in, whip a ton of Cannons. Should be able to attack somewhere in the 900AD's with a stack Justin can't really beat. He is the strongest AI, Pacal is advanced too but has been in a long war with HC and Charly.
Round 8 - 560AD
T125: Get Guilds. Can only really trade for Optics. Teching Gunpowder now.
T126: Teched Med – Only Sury has Philo. Will now bulb Philo but hoping to trade for it before I finish Gunpowder.
T131: Trades! Guilds for Philo with Sury, Engineering with Justin, and Optics + HBR with Capac. I had to give Justin 295g but I still have 1400 left, should be enough to get to Steel.
T133: Gunpowder in, start Chem (8)
T135: Switch to Pacifism to get 2 GS out quicker.
T137: Pop 1st GS in Boston, bulb Chem, only need a few more beakers. NY will pop GS in 3, will use for GA.
T138: Chem in, start Steel (12). Trade Philo for Theo with HC.
Stop here.
Round 9 Plan
I will use the GS to pop a GA, tech Steel and slowbuild Pikes and Maces. Once Steel is in, whip a ton of Cannons. Should be able to attack somewhere in the 900AD's with a stack Justin can't really beat. He is the strongest AI, Pacal is advanced too but has been in a long war with HC and Charly.
Thought my partial inactivity might have killed this thread Guess you cant really comment if there is nothing to comment on!
Just a general comment - I'm not sure if Cannons are better than Cuirs in this situation - Lain's play showed we can still hit pretty early and hard enough to kill Justin. The problem I have with Cuirs, is that I seem to take horrible losses to take out AIs. I didn't keep the save, but I remember checking after taking 6 cities off Justin - I had lost almost 30 cuirs! All my cities were whipped down to the bare bones, and therefore my tech rate died.
All that said, I'm sure Lain's 760 AD save is a winning position. So the main interest for me in trying Steel, is to see what type of losses I take. If I lose 3 cannons a city, plus another 10 random units on stack defence/90+% battles - maybe I still lose 30 units?
Also curious if I should have started workshopping instead of cottaging - I could get 1F/4H tiles on a lot of greenland by using Caste, and I have decent food. Gut feeling is that Slavery gets a better army faster here though?
(The Deity wins I did have were using mostly Workshop/farm economy after getting to Communism)
@ Fippy - In my limited Deity experience, I rarely actually build Grens. I think offence is best handled by more siege, and I tend to defend stacks like this with a lot of pikes (AI seems to counterattack most often with mounted units, and pikes capture cannonaded cities just as well as maces, muskets, knights and grens, and are very cheap!).
I actually like Mil Sci for another reason - Military Academies! Another 50% mil production in the best 2-3 production cities is huge for dom imo.
I don't think you can argue grens are too expensive to build - Cuirs and Cannoons also cost 100h.
Guess you cant really comment if there is nothing to comment on!Just a general comment - I'm not sure if Cannons are better than Cuirs in this situation - Lain's play showed we can still hit pretty early and hard enough to kill Justin. The problem I have with Cuirs, is that I seem to take horrible losses to take out AIs. I didn't keep the save, but I remember checking after taking 6 cities off Justin - I had lost almost 30 cuirs! All my cities were whipped down to the bare bones, and therefore my tech rate died.
All that said, I'm sure Lain's 760 AD save is a winning position. So the main interest for me in trying Steel, is to see what type of losses I take. If I lose 3 cannons a city, plus another 10 random units on stack defence/90+% battles - maybe I still lose 30 units?
Also curious if I should have started workshopping instead of cottaging - I could get 1F/4H tiles on a lot of greenland by using Caste, and I have decent food. Gut feeling is that Slavery gets a better army faster here though?
(The Deity wins I did have were using mostly Workshop/farm economy after getting to Communism)
@ Fippy - In my limited Deity experience, I rarely actually build Grens. I think offence is best handled by more siege, and I tend to defend stacks like this with a lot of pikes (AI seems to counterattack most often with mounted units, and pikes capture cannonaded cities just as well as maces, muskets, knights and grens, and are very cheap!).
I actually like Mil Sci for another reason - Military Academies! Another 50% mil production in the best 2-3 production cities is huge for dom imo.
I don't think you can argue grens are too expensive to build - Cuirs and Cannoons also cost 100h.
Round 9 - 780AD
T140: GS in. Start GA.
T141: Trade Theo to Genghis for Drama + 30g. Could have sold gunpowder to Sury + Pacal for 1k gold but decide not to – dont want them trading it to Justin.
T142: Sell Drama to Sury for 305g. Could have sold to Charly but he is Sury's WE. Had to refuse Pacal's demand for Gunpowder – want to keep the monopoly.
T147: Justin circumnavigates. Also gets Gunpowder. Last turn of GA – revolt to Slavery + Vassalage + Theo. Steel in 2 turns.
Trade Gunpowder to HC for Banking, and to Sury for Paper + 230g + map.
I have 11 pikes, and another 3 will complete this turn. Decided to add a few workshops in around Chicago and Seattle – don't see any benefit in growing more cottages in those cities. Going to whip some Cannons now.
T149: Steel in. Start Mil Sci.
Stop here, have to get ready for work!
Now have 16 pikes, 1 Mace. First 3 Cannons ready to finish next turn. Another ~10 turns building units and then I'm ready to attack?
Round 10 plan
Tech is interesting. I can get Mil Sci, Nationalism, Edu or PP? I checked my finance screen, 95 commerce from tiles, 149 from foreign trade routes. I think PP is out. Edu is no good – no hammers to make unis. Nationalism – don't need drafted units, won't get Taj. So I think Mil Sci is best here? No-one has that tech either, so I can trade for the other stuff?
Genghis is behind enough to bribe in against Justin which is good. Sury is not trading anymore, but hoping to get him to Friendly – have been voting for him for diplo win, now at +4 for voting.
Guessing I can get almost 20 cannons. Add in a few Maces and Muskets for stack defence. Should have about 15 pikes in the attacking stack once I absorb Justin's initial attacks, I'm expecting him to bring quite a few Cataphracts.
Believe the game is winnable from here?
T140: GS in. Start GA.
T141: Trade Theo to Genghis for Drama + 30g. Could have sold gunpowder to Sury + Pacal for 1k gold but decide not to – dont want them trading it to Justin.
T142: Sell Drama to Sury for 305g. Could have sold to Charly but he is Sury's WE. Had to refuse Pacal's demand for Gunpowder – want to keep the monopoly.
T147: Justin circumnavigates. Also gets Gunpowder. Last turn of GA – revolt to Slavery + Vassalage + Theo. Steel in 2 turns.
Trade Gunpowder to HC for Banking, and to Sury for Paper + 230g + map.
I have 11 pikes, and another 3 will complete this turn. Decided to add a few workshops in around Chicago and Seattle – don't see any benefit in growing more cottages in those cities. Going to whip some Cannons now.
T149: Steel in. Start Mil Sci.
Stop here, have to get ready for work!
Now have 16 pikes, 1 Mace. First 3 Cannons ready to finish next turn. Another ~10 turns building units and then I'm ready to attack?
Round 10 plan
Tech is interesting. I can get Mil Sci, Nationalism, Edu or PP? I checked my finance screen, 95 commerce from tiles, 149 from foreign trade routes. I think PP is out. Edu is no good – no hammers to make unis. Nationalism – don't need drafted units, won't get Taj. So I think Mil Sci is best here? No-one has that tech either, so I can trade for the other stuff?
Genghis is behind enough to bribe in against Justin which is good. Sury is not trading anymore, but hoping to get him to Friendly – have been voting for him for diplo win, now at +4 for voting.
Guessing I can get almost 20 cannons. Add in a few Maces and Muskets for stack defence. Should have about 15 pikes in the attacking stack once I absorb Justin's initial attacks, I'm expecting him to bring quite a few Cataphracts.
Believe the game is winnable from here?
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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- Mar 17, 2013
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I think Cuirs are at their strongest if there's more than 1 potential war target, their mobility makes it easier "stealing" cities should one AI struggle or otherwise leave cities defended weak 
They are also much faster if an easy first war is expected.
One reason why they are so popular, Imm AIs usually just cannot stop them..so why bother with slow cannons.
On deity they very often require top focus, and are more difficult to use than you would think when reading posts back then.
Another + i can think of, the possible Cavs upgrade.
Cavs are usually better than having cannons + weak units, would have to be very special cases if not.
While it's still some way to Rifling, PP can sometimes be bulbed and a very good tech..RP also okay.
Cannons can easily be better than Cuirs if there's just 1 strong AI close for war, some unlucky early rng and you can get stuck with Cuirs against Pikes and stuff while cannons will always take cities. With only having Justi on your continent, would have to estimate how strong he is and how much earlier Cuir techs can be reached (if earlier at all).
They are also much faster if an easy first war is expected.
One reason why they are so popular, Imm AIs usually just cannot stop them..so why bother with slow cannons.
On deity they very often require top focus, and are more difficult to use than you would think when reading posts back then.
Another + i can think of, the possible Cavs upgrade.
Cavs are usually better than having cannons + weak units, would have to be very special cases if not.
While it's still some way to Rifling, PP can sometimes be bulbed and a very good tech..RP also okay.
Cannons can easily be better than Cuirs if there's just 1 strong AI close for war, some unlucky early rng and you can get stuck with Cuirs against Pikes and stuff while cannons will always take cities. With only having Justi on your continent, would have to estimate how strong he is and how much earlier Cuir techs can be reached (if earlier at all).
Hi Fippy,
Yes, Cavs are awesome, especially if the target doesn't have rifles.
Civ IV - Counterattacking Rifles edition!
Played a short buildup to 900AD - Justin gets Rifles! I have 0.4 power rating, LOL.
Decided to attack anyway. Here is a 1040AD save. I've lost 20 cannons and 13 pikes, killed 23 rifles and 14 cataphracts. Took 2 cities, but I'm basically out of steam.
So Cuirs were better on this map???
Not sure if I want to take Lain's save and finish the game - I'm 100% sure I can win from that save, but I wasn't able to get there myself.
Would like some opinions if the 1040AD save is winnable, feels like I am going to fall too far behind on tech from smashing my cities into dust to kill Justin.
Yes, Cavs are awesome, especially if the target doesn't have rifles.
Civ IV - Counterattacking Rifles edition!
Played a short buildup to 900AD - Justin gets Rifles! I have 0.4 power rating, LOL.
Decided to attack anyway. Here is a 1040AD save. I've lost 20 cannons and 13 pikes, killed 23 rifles and 14 cataphracts. Took 2 cities, but I'm basically out of steam.
So Cuirs were better on this map???
Not sure if I want to take Lain's save and finish the game - I'm 100% sure I can win from that save, but I wasn't able to get there myself.
Would like some opinions if the 1040AD save is winnable, feels like I am going to fall too far behind on tech from smashing my cities into dust to kill Justin.
*BUMP*
Back from the dead.
Have the Civ4 bug again. Failed a few offline Deity attempts so looking for help.
Script is one I haven't seen posted before, Lows_Random_Maps_3_0. Generated a dozen starts before this one, seemed pretty similar to fractals.
Leader is Mehmed. Initial save attached.
Shadows, feedback, comments all welcome. No need for spoilers. Play the whole map now if you want. Saves to study are appreciated.
Back from the dead.
Have the Civ4 bug again. Failed a few offline Deity attempts so looking for help.
Script is one I haven't seen posted before, Lows_Random_Maps_3_0. Generated a dozen starts before this one, seemed pretty similar to fractals.
Leader is Mehmed. Initial save attached.
Shadows, feedback, comments all welcome. No need for spoilers. Play the whole map now if you want. Saves to study are appreciated.
Wow, this was a nice thread!
Very glad to have you back @Berks , hope the bug bit you hard this time.
I added a Buffy5 starting save with barb techs added, seems like most people play that these days (I do.).
Will that be a problem for you opening saves later on?
I highly recommend you get it if you don't already have it, neat things like sentry+heal for units, and workers waiting for instruction before landing the final chop, and being able to hoover over tiles to see what improvements you have already laid there saves you so much annoying work having to place notes etc.
Very glad to have you back @Berks , hope the bug bit you hard this time.
I added a Buffy5 starting save with barb techs added, seems like most people play that these days (I do.).
Will that be a problem for you opening saves later on?
I highly recommend you get it if you don't already have it, neat things like sentry+heal for units, and workers waiting for instruction before landing the final chop, and being able to hoover over tiles to see what improvements you have already laid there saves you so much annoying work having to place notes etc.
Spoiler Starting screenshot :
From the starting position, SIP looked natural. SIP after Warrior SW.
Heavy forests and no more specials. We have Ag already. Mining + BW seems obvious. Site looks pretty strong for cottaging later.
T0 - T24
Met Sury, Willem, Charly and Justin.
Mining -> BW
Worker -> Warrior.
Improved dry corn, 2T mining plains hill. Could have roaded instead but to where?
Stopped here as there's plenty to consider.
For those opening the save, the white crosses are proposed fogbusting locations, the red ones are city sites.
Settling/Builds
Marked out 3 sites, Pig city to pump workers/settlers, Banana city and Eastern helper cities.
Lots of jungle land and few resources so I think we focus on our capital here?
Best 2nd settle seems to be Pigs, but without AH it would be too slow?
Other 2nd city could be Banana, we can already chop and farm so we can grow it pretty quick and start working some cottages soonish.
Planning to chop/farm the 2 marked farm tiles while building Warriors, and finish the first Settler at size 3.
Eastern site would only be a blocker against Sury who we met on T6. No food source so not a good 2nd settle to me.
Tech
No copper, so thinking Hunting -> Archery -> AH, or AH -> Archery.
Other option is Pottery -> Hunting -> Archery if I settle the Banana site? Like the idea of 1 pop whipping granaries to speed pop growth.
Third option, is Oracle play any good here? Taking CoL or MC for trades?
Fogbust
Next warrior to the proposed Banana site, maybe explore to the S a bit next?
Heavy forests and no more specials. We have Ag already. Mining + BW seems obvious. Site looks pretty strong for cottaging later.
T0 - T24
Met Sury, Willem, Charly and Justin.
Mining -> BW
Worker -> Warrior.
Improved dry corn, 2T mining plains hill. Could have roaded instead but to where?
Stopped here as there's plenty to consider.
For those opening the save, the white crosses are proposed fogbusting locations, the red ones are city sites.
Settling/Builds
Marked out 3 sites, Pig city to pump workers/settlers, Banana city and Eastern helper cities.
Lots of jungle land and few resources so I think we focus on our capital here?
Best 2nd settle seems to be Pigs, but without AH it would be too slow?
Other 2nd city could be Banana, we can already chop and farm so we can grow it pretty quick and start working some cottages soonish.
Planning to chop/farm the 2 marked farm tiles while building Warriors, and finish the first Settler at size 3.
Eastern site would only be a blocker against Sury who we met on T6. No food source so not a good 2nd settle to me.
Tech
No copper, so thinking Hunting -> Archery -> AH, or AH -> Archery.
Other option is Pottery -> Hunting -> Archery if I settle the Banana site? Like the idea of 1 pop whipping granaries to speed pop growth.
Third option, is Oracle play any good here? Taking CoL or MC for trades?
Fogbust
Next warrior to the proposed Banana site, maybe explore to the S a bit next?
