Deity ABC's - Achieving Better Consistency
- Thread starter Berks
- Start date
@krikav
Thank you for the warm welcome! I saw some of your posts across some of the more recent threads and I'm looking forward to reading some more
Got BUFFY up and running this time no problems, thank you for converting the save, it worked fine for me.
I think I was using BUG/BULL for the first save I posted.
Did a quick re-run using BUFFY, the only main difference was not meeting Charly or Justin. Will continue from this save.
Edit - read your T0 post, some interesting considerations. A pop 2 worker was not on my radar at all but your reasoning makes sense. Hoping if you play it out, we can draw a comparison between the 2 approaches. Good learning opportunity!
Thank you for the warm welcome! I saw some of your posts across some of the more recent threads and I'm looking forward to reading some more
Got BUFFY up and running this time no problems, thank you for converting the save, it worked fine for me.
I think I was using BUG/BULL for the first save I posted.
Did a quick re-run using BUFFY, the only main difference was not meeting Charly or Justin. Will continue from this save.
Edit - read your T0 post, some interesting considerations. A pop 2 worker was not on my radar at all but your reasoning makes sense. Hoping if you play it out, we can draw a comparison between the 2 approaches. Good learning opportunity!
There is forest to chop, food AND a river.
The only thing I'm lacking is a riverside PH gold to settle on.
I mean yeah, cap is decent, river and green. However, where is our food beyond that? Pigs of course, but settled-on-nanners 
as 3rd is already a bit meh.The AIs have taken it from us. We have to take back whats rightly ours!
Something that speaks for getting AH somewhat soon is checking for the availability of horses. Just going for HAs here might be preferable compared to waiting until elepults.
But then again... Sury isn't PRO, but his Cre makes the cities nasty quick enough anyway.
@sampsa
Thank you for the input. Have seen quite a few of your posts as well. Been combing through all the deity/immortal threads on S&T since I stopped posting and I see there are still lots of awesome players around.
@krikav
After seeing your save it looks like size 2 worker was flat out better? you have more food and hammers, and all I got in return was 2 turns on a mine, 3 turns if you count the turn lost to hop onto the hill.
@.all.
Would you believe the first start I generated on this script was a river corn + river PH gold + river grass gem, with a 2nd river grass gem 2NW, available if you settled on the river PH gold!! I passed on that one. Should have saved it to see how easily you guys could win it!
This script generated pangaea, continents, iso and semi iso in testing. I think this map is either 2 continents with us on the big one, or a pangaea based on meeting 4 AI via land.
I planned 1E of pigs to work 3 cottages later, but can see 1S of Oasis is a much better suggestion. Working Oasis right away would help us grow faster and get through the early techs quicker.
Oracle was a last minute idea, seems pretty bad upon further consideration.
Will think about Pottery as next tech and a 2nd worker before settler. The oasis isn't getting any better and we really want AH and a worker ready to make best use of the city in the shortest possible time.
Thank you for the input. Have seen quite a few of your posts as well. Been combing through all the deity/immortal threads on S&T since I stopped posting and I see there are still lots of awesome players around.
@krikav
After seeing your save it looks like size 2 worker was flat out better? you have more food and hammers, and all I got in return was 2 turns on a mine, 3 turns if you count the turn lost to hop onto the hill.
@.all.
Would you believe the first start I generated on this script was a river corn + river PH gold + river grass gem, with a 2nd river grass gem 2NW, available if you settled on the river PH gold!! I passed on that one. Should have saved it to see how easily you guys could win it!
This script generated pangaea, continents, iso and semi iso in testing. I think this map is either 2 continents with us on the big one, or a pangaea based on meeting 4 AI via land.
I planned 1E of pigs to work 3 cottages later, but can see 1S of Oasis is a much better suggestion. Working Oasis right away would help us grow faster and get through the early techs quicker.
Oracle was a last minute idea, seems pretty bad upon further consideration.
Will think about Pottery as next tech and a 2nd worker before settler. The oasis isn't getting any better and we really want AH and a worker ready to make best use of the city in the shortest possible time.
Oracle on deity... I'd say only on very rare circumstances, like settling on marble and even then, expecting mostly fail gold. At least for me, Mids is the only wonder I aim with very high frequency assuming stone is available. This is due to two reasons - Mids is a strong wonder and it doesn't get built so early that it competes with expansion.
Yes, it does seem like worker at pop2 was better. I think thats mainly because there are so few turns in difference (T15 vs T18), and also because there are a few turns between the corn being finished, and before BW is in, that the value of workerturns are really low.
I'm not at all certain about second worker before settler, and I'm not sure whats the best techpath either. But I would appreciate a second worker since it's so easy to get (just land two chops into it and done!), and it does add so much more safety knowing that you can get a hammer boost more or less at will.
It would be much more obviously good with a second worker if there was more usefull things for the worker to do, other than just chop though.
Agree with @sampsa about wonders but will add GLib besides pyramids. When you have marble early on, they are almost a guarantee if you plan your game around it abit.
Oracle... very seldom. But I think about it in many games because it makes for a different game. I like different and uncharted territory.
But marble doesn't really make or break that deal though. To get it reasonable fast, and to get the prereqs to unlock what you do want, it seems like it's better to just ignore masonry/tw completely and just pretend that it's a resourceless wonder that costs 150 hammers.
Early CoL has some synnergy with expansive leaders too, as it's less necessity for whipping out the granaries.
I'm not at all certain about second worker before settler, and I'm not sure whats the best techpath either. But I would appreciate a second worker since it's so easy to get (just land two chops into it and done!), and it does add so much more safety knowing that you can get a hammer boost more or less at will.
It would be much more obviously good with a second worker if there was more usefull things for the worker to do, other than just chop though.
Agree with @sampsa about wonders but will add GLib besides pyramids. When you have marble early on, they are almost a guarantee if you plan your game around it abit.
Oracle... very seldom. But I think about it in many games because it makes for a different game. I like different and uncharted territory.
But marble doesn't really make or break that deal though. To get it reasonable fast, and to get the prereqs to unlock what you do want, it seems like it's better to just ignore masonry/tw completely and just pretend that it's a resourceless wonder that costs 150 hammers.
Early CoL has some synnergy with expansive leaders too, as it's less necessity for whipping out the granaries.
Deathcrush
Chieftain
+1 and I don't even play on deity but I rarely build anything different from GreatLibrary and Mids and only if I have the respectable resources. for me Oracle is a waste of time/and hammers/ 
I actually find even GLib quite underwhelming. I guess the reason is that it's so easy to get all the needed
under GA running pacifism. Sure, more is more, but the returns are diminishing. Still of course, it's a relatively cheap, useful wonder.T24-T50:
Thought about the situation over breakfast. We want to chop/build 2 farms, improve pigs and road to 2nd city if we settle 1S of Oasis. We probably need 4 or 5 warriors to fogbust our immediate neighborhood and I don't feel like any AI is close enough to help, except maybe Sury in the east.
Tech switch to Pottery, moreso for the cheap Granaries than Cottages. Still have time for Archery and have a PH mine to work to build fogbusters.
T26: Warrior done, worker is moving to farm NE of capital. Settler at size 3. 2 Workers chopping feels like a bit too much production right now.
Calculate settler build time - 10H turn one, 9H/turn thereafter. 20H from forest, takes 7 turns to chop 2 forests. Production with 1 chop after 7T = 10+54+20 =84.
So best is chop,move,chop rather than build a Farm. Barbs enter borders around T35 and I have zero warriors protecting my south.
T33: Complete the 2nd chop on the farm spots as calculated. There is a C2 barb archer to the SW, and a fresh Archer to the SE. Willem has an archer roaming around my capital, maybe I get lucky. I notice I need 1 more beaker to finish Pottery on this turn. Switch PH mine to Grassland.
T34: Settler done, Pottery in. 11H overflow. Decide to build Granary first, 34H will be invested this turn. Hunting next, then I can decide on Archery.
I can spend my next 5 worker turns on roading, or a farm. 2C vs 1F. I probably won't be working the farm in the next 10T anyway, so I choose to road first.
T35: No barbs visible to the S, therefore minimum 3 turns away from attacking my Corn tile. 3T to slow build Granary, with current food surplus will have 13/26 food when it completes, which is perfect. Will therefore not whip it, unless an Archer moves my way.
T36: Barb warrior appears NW of my fogbuster. I found Eridne 1S as planned which pushes Willem's archer next to the Warrior. I therefore retreat my warrior back across the river and start re-maneuvering the NW warrior into a new fogbusting spot.
Set Eridne to build a Granary which I intend to whip for 1 pop.
T37: Barb warrior retreats I think, as Willem's archer is still the same HP. 1 tile it could be on so I leave warrior in place. Barb archer to SE goes back into fog so I can safely slowbuild Granary. I have the option to finish this turn but the food bin is lined up so no need to.
T38: Warrior emerges from the fog as thought. Granary done, 2T warrior in capital. Now fogbusting near the western peak. Can cover if I lose my jungle fortified warrior across the river in time.
T39: Kill barb warrior. No archers in sight so start working Ivory to grow in 2 turns. Warrior still finishes in 2. Start working on the first farm.
Hunting in 2. Next decision is whether to start improving Ivory. I anticipate barb archers entering from the SE still and because I chose Pottery I cannot defend the flatland tile. Decide to finish the farm first for safety and a bit faster growth.
T41: Hunting in. Can get AH in 8, or Archery in 6 as 1 turn needed at 0%. Capital now size 4, 3F 7H output until farm finishes. Warrior built. Barb warrior to S, have not seen the barb archer to the SE yet.
Stop here for some feedback on the next tech and build.
Thought about the situation over breakfast. We want to chop/build 2 farms, improve pigs and road to 2nd city if we settle 1S of Oasis. We probably need 4 or 5 warriors to fogbust our immediate neighborhood and I don't feel like any AI is close enough to help, except maybe Sury in the east.
Tech switch to Pottery, moreso for the cheap Granaries than Cottages. Still have time for Archery and have a PH mine to work to build fogbusters.
T26: Warrior done, worker is moving to farm NE of capital. Settler at size 3. 2 Workers chopping feels like a bit too much production right now.
Calculate settler build time - 10H turn one, 9H/turn thereafter. 20H from forest, takes 7 turns to chop 2 forests. Production with 1 chop after 7T = 10+54+20 =84.
So best is chop,move,chop rather than build a Farm. Barbs enter borders around T35 and I have zero warriors protecting my south.
T33: Complete the 2nd chop on the farm spots as calculated. There is a C2 barb archer to the SW, and a fresh Archer to the SE. Willem has an archer roaming around my capital, maybe I get lucky. I notice I need 1 more beaker to finish Pottery on this turn. Switch PH mine to Grassland.
T34: Settler done, Pottery in. 11H overflow. Decide to build Granary first, 34H will be invested this turn. Hunting next, then I can decide on Archery.
I can spend my next 5 worker turns on roading, or a farm. 2C vs 1F. I probably won't be working the farm in the next 10T anyway, so I choose to road first.
T35: No barbs visible to the S, therefore minimum 3 turns away from attacking my Corn tile. 3T to slow build Granary, with current food surplus will have 13/26 food when it completes, which is perfect. Will therefore not whip it, unless an Archer moves my way.
T36: Barb warrior appears NW of my fogbuster. I found Eridne 1S as planned which pushes Willem's archer next to the Warrior. I therefore retreat my warrior back across the river and start re-maneuvering the NW warrior into a new fogbusting spot.
Set Eridne to build a Granary which I intend to whip for 1 pop.
T37: Barb warrior retreats I think, as Willem's archer is still the same HP. 1 tile it could be on so I leave warrior in place. Barb archer to SE goes back into fog so I can safely slowbuild Granary. I have the option to finish this turn but the food bin is lined up so no need to.
T38: Warrior emerges from the fog as thought. Granary done, 2T warrior in capital. Now fogbusting near the western peak. Can cover if I lose my jungle fortified warrior across the river in time.
T39: Kill barb warrior. No archers in sight so start working Ivory to grow in 2 turns. Warrior still finishes in 2. Start working on the first farm.
Hunting in 2. Next decision is whether to start improving Ivory. I anticipate barb archers entering from the SE still and because I chose Pottery I cannot defend the flatland tile. Decide to finish the farm first for safety and a bit faster growth.
T41: Hunting in. Can get AH in 8, or Archery in 6 as 1 turn needed at 0%. Capital now size 4, 3F 7H output until farm finishes. Warrior built. Barb warrior to S, have not seen the barb archer to the SE yet.
Stop here for some feedback on the next tech and build.
@krikav
Just read your report. The barb situation you described is exactly what I was expecting.
Found it funny we both pushed Willem's archer out on settling and he was useless to us.
I thought jungle had grown over my banana tile but it turns out I'm partially blind.
Did you work farmed banana in Edirne and this is why a Granary was not whipped?
Also if you are going for elepult you would not want to chop many more forest if any? I don't see us whipping out a big army.
Based on my map knowledge, I like staying small and trying to grow the capital's cottages. We have Elephants for eventual elepult breakout if creativity becomes a problem (my attempt at a joke based on known AI's traits - HA!)
The main problem to me is growing the cities. I really do not want to whip anything apart from the 1 pop Granaries. I think chopping a 2nd and maybe 3rd worker is the best plan. I can leave the capital at size 4 and work Corn, PH mine, Silk and eventually Ivory.
Upon reflection the farm build was a waste, I could have already been chopping that worker. That farm likely won't be worked for very long, only until Ivory is up.
So immediate plan is tech AH and chop worker. Start fogbusting more of the south and get a second Settler out.
Just read your report. The barb situation you described is exactly what I was expecting.
Found it funny we both pushed Willem's archer out on settling and he was useless to us.
I thought jungle had grown over my banana tile but it turns out I'm partially blind.
Did you work farmed banana in Edirne and this is why a Granary was not whipped?
Also if you are going for elepult you would not want to chop many more forest if any? I don't see us whipping out a big army.
Based on my map knowledge, I like staying small and trying to grow the capital's cottages. We have Elephants for eventual elepult breakout if creativity becomes a problem (my attempt at a joke based on known AI's traits - HA!)
The main problem to me is growing the cities. I really do not want to whip anything apart from the 1 pop Granaries. I think chopping a 2nd and maybe 3rd worker is the best plan. I can leave the capital at size 4 and work Corn, PH mine, Silk and eventually Ivory.
Upon reflection the farm build was a waste, I could have already been chopping that worker. That farm likely won't be worked for very long, only until Ivory is up.
So immediate plan is tech AH and chop worker. Start fogbusting more of the south and get a second Settler out.
Played a short set after reading Krikav's T50, mostly so I can compare notes 
T41 - T50
T43: Finished another Warrior and the Farm improvement. Last Warrior to be built and hit size 5 in 3 turns.
T44: Realise I need to revolt into Slavery! Decide I will chop a worker from Edirne, capital can start on a Settler at size 5. Barb archer to the SW so put warrior on hill forest tile inside borders.
T47: Barb archer to S kills an AI unit and has 0.1HP left. No promo in hand so I snipe it and get warrior into a good fogbusting spot! 5T to finish worker in Edirne, will chop 1 more forest then we can double improve Pigs. Ivory will have to wait a bit. Settler started at size 5, 9T
T50: Find the edge of Willem's borders to the W. Put the chop into a Settler instead as Worker done in 2T. AH in, put Writing as a placeholder. Find Horse in a semi-useful but fairly secure location.
Don't think I need archery now. Warriors are well advanced and we are covering jungle with rivers and hills. I don't have anyone pressed against my borders just yet. And I hope it stays that way for a bit longer!
Comparing to @krikav:
I have the same 6 pop but a city and worker behind.
There is less food in storage.
Krikav has improved the Ivory tile.
The farm is on Banana not grassland which is better for growth.
(Worst sin of all, I'm 1 gold poorer)
I have 13 more beakers.
A Granary in Edirne.
3 extra forests to chop for later - not sure if this is classified as a benefit.
The extra 60H did give Krikav a better position right now.
My view is krikav has extended his lead over my position a bit more from the T24 position, despite the barb setbacks.
Thanks for posting the report and saves for comparison.
In the next turnset, I should settle 1S of Banana next? Willem would settle that spot before I can get 2 Settlers out, or could he?
I notice I will have 69h invested in my Settler next turn. So I could whip 5 -> 3 for max overflow into another Settler or Worker. Working unimproved Ivory and Silk does not seem worthwhile in comparison.
I can also chop instead of improving Pig with my first worker. Pig is better than Oasis, but is it better than another Settler or Worker?
Settling a 4th city will hurt, but with Cottages built it would only be a few turns delay on the way to Writing.
Time to think about this a bit more.
T41 - T50
T43: Finished another Warrior and the Farm improvement. Last Warrior to be built and hit size 5 in 3 turns.
T44: Realise I need to revolt into Slavery! Decide I will chop a worker from Edirne, capital can start on a Settler at size 5. Barb archer to the SW so put warrior on hill forest tile inside borders.
T47: Barb archer to S kills an AI unit and has 0.1HP left. No promo in hand so I snipe it and get warrior into a good fogbusting spot! 5T to finish worker in Edirne, will chop 1 more forest then we can double improve Pigs. Ivory will have to wait a bit. Settler started at size 5, 9T
T50: Find the edge of Willem's borders to the W. Put the chop into a Settler instead as Worker done in 2T. AH in, put Writing as a placeholder. Find Horse in a semi-useful but fairly secure location.
Don't think I need archery now. Warriors are well advanced and we are covering jungle with rivers and hills. I don't have anyone pressed against my borders just yet. And I hope it stays that way for a bit longer!
Comparing to @krikav:
I have the same 6 pop but a city and worker behind.
There is less food in storage.
Krikav has improved the Ivory tile.
The farm is on Banana not grassland which is better for growth.
(Worst sin of all, I'm 1 gold poorer)
I have 13 more beakers.
A Granary in Edirne.
3 extra forests to chop for later - not sure if this is classified as a benefit.
The extra 60H did give Krikav a better position right now.
My view is krikav has extended his lead over my position a bit more from the T24 position, despite the barb setbacks.
Thanks for posting the report and saves for comparison.
In the next turnset, I should settle 1S of Banana next? Willem would settle that spot before I can get 2 Settlers out, or could he?
I notice I will have 69h invested in my Settler next turn. So I could whip 5 -> 3 for max overflow into another Settler or Worker. Working unimproved Ivory and Silk does not seem worthwhile in comparison.
I can also chop instead of improving Pig with my first worker. Pig is better than Oasis, but is it better than another Settler or Worker?
Settling a 4th city will hurt, but with Cottages built it would only be a few turns delay on the way to Writing.
Time to think about this a bit more.
@Berks
It would be helpful if you posted a overview screenshot of the turns you wish to compare, that way I don't have to tab in and out and look around as much.
I'll try to go through everything now, but start with some things:
Granary in Edirne, I think it's time to whip this turn, or possibly next turn, have to count abit to know. I don't whip it right away as I reach pop2. It's better to wait until about half the food bar is full, or whip with such timing that after the build is done, the city will harvest more then half the food bar before growing.
This gives the full benefit of the granary, and it has also given me a few more turns working one extra tile.
I quite often 1pop whip right away though, since that starts the whip-anger timer, and that extra happycap could be more worthwhile than having an extra citizen a few extra turns.
Chopping, yes I want to save as much forest as possible until after math and when army buildup starts.
I forsee alot of whipping here actually. Chops are good but chops+whips are better, more is more!
But for some things a chop now might be better than saving it for later.
I'm not certain that a farm or two is bad here. But probably they should be east of the capital. The tiles west are overloaded, all 3 cities can work them and that makes for good cottages I think, they can be worked all the time.
It would be helpful if you posted a overview screenshot of the turns you wish to compare, that way I don't have to tab in and out and look around as much.
I'll try to go through everything now, but start with some things:
Granary in Edirne, I think it's time to whip this turn, or possibly next turn, have to count abit to know. I don't whip it right away as I reach pop2. It's better to wait until about half the food bar is full, or whip with such timing that after the build is done, the city will harvest more then half the food bar before growing.
This gives the full benefit of the granary, and it has also given me a few more turns working one extra tile.
I quite often 1pop whip right away though, since that starts the whip-anger timer, and that extra happycap could be more worthwhile than having an extra citizen a few extra turns.
Chopping, yes I want to save as much forest as possible until after math and when army buildup starts.
I forsee alot of whipping here actually. Chops are good but chops+whips are better, more is more!
But for some things a chop now might be better than saving it for later.
I'm not certain that a farm or two is bad here. But probably they should be east of the capital. The tiles west are overloaded, all 3 cities can work them and that makes for good cottages I think, they can be worked all the time.
I have checked the saves now. It looks like you just chopped.
I would reload the autosave from that turn, and instead assign that chop to Edirne instead, so that the chop would finish the worker there.
By now when you have granaries you really should try to maximize the turns cities are not working workers/settlers. Every turn a city grows instead of stagnates it more or less gets twice the production from all food.
This means setting up things such that if you have some overflow and can shuffle tiles around and land a chop so that you get 40H into a settler in one turn, thats wonderful.
If you can't do that, then making sure you get 10H into a settler in one turn so you can 3pop whip the next, is prudent play.
What needs to be avoided is spending multiple turns stagnating to unlock the whip, getting 6/100 settler, then 12/100 and then whip.
Edit:
"In the next turnset, I should settle 1S of Banana next? Willem would settle that spot before I can get 2 Settlers out, or could he?"
Yepp, for sure, settle that spot asap!
I would reload the autosave from that turn, and instead assign that chop to Edirne instead, so that the chop would finish the worker there.
By now when you have granaries you really should try to maximize the turns cities are not working workers/settlers. Every turn a city grows instead of stagnates it more or less gets twice the production from all food.
This means setting up things such that if you have some overflow and can shuffle tiles around and land a chop so that you get 40H into a settler in one turn, thats wonderful.
If you can't do that, then making sure you get 10H into a settler in one turn so you can 3pop whip the next, is prudent play.
What needs to be avoided is spending multiple turns stagnating to unlock the whip, getting 6/100 settler, then 12/100 and then whip.
Spoiler :
Edit:
"In the next turnset, I should settle 1S of Banana next? Willem would settle that spot before I can get 2 Settlers out, or could he?"
Yepp, for sure, settle that spot asap!
