Deity challengers

[Duckweed]

Those levee hammers are way into the future. Our current capital has stone + copper in bfc which is important right now and even more after buro. The hammers which the levee will gain eventually are probably less than have been lost earlier through not having copper /stone enhanced by buro. Also the early gain in hammers by having copper in capital is far more important imo than the future levee hammers. We can now found a second wheat/fish city where we can later build a levee. If capital was 2E this spot would have had much more overlap with the capital. So i'm very happy with the current placement of the capital right now.

OK, let's make a detailed comparison.

Site 1: Settle in place, claim cow/wheat/stone/Copper
Site 2: Settle 1E of the cow, claim cow/Wheat

Let's count tiles 1st

Site 1: 1 cow,1 plain wheat, 1 grassland copper, 1 plain hill stone,1 rs grassland hill, 1 plain hill, 2 rs grasslands, 4 grasslands, 2 rs plains, 4 plains, 2 lakes

Site 2: 1 cow,1 rs plain wheat, 1 rs grassland hill, 2 grassland hill, 1 plain hill, 3 rs grassland, 6 grassland, 3 rs plains, 1 plain, 1 lake.

So the difference is:
Site 1 (1 plain wheat, 1 grassland copper, 1 plain hill stone, 3 plain, 1 lake )
vs
Site 2 (1 rs plain wheat, 2 grassland hill, 1 rs grassland, 2 grassland, 1 rs plain ) + levee of 10 rs tiles

Before the copper is mined, site 2 will produce more than site 1 due to the yield from rs wheat (1F1C). There will be 80 ~ 100 turns until CS. So the gain from the rs wheat only would be ~90F90C, and after CS the 1C gain will become 1.5C and will last forever. (If you want to argue that the rs wheat will be claimed by other city, still there's ~35 turns and that's 35F35C already. Stone site is only 1H better than a plain hill and I guess in many turns you will put your citizen to work on a grassland hill or grassland cottage or a scientist instead. If I give you 50H gain over a plain hill tile before levee, would you agree?
.
Before BW, the only good thing left on site 1 is the hidden resource. It only makes sense if it is a copper or horse (2/7 chance and you get the luck, Iron is not bad though. remember that there's also possibility of other resources in site 2). Even with the copper, how many turns will the capital work on it before other city can work on it. (I think the answer would be no more than 15 turns in case that it is not the 2nd or 3rd city to claim it. The difference between the grassland copper and a grassland hill would be 1F1H, so 15 turns makes 15F15H.) You will probably benefit the bureo boost of the 1H for 50~80 turns before levee is available, so that's ~35H. So the gain from Site 1 is about 15F100H.

Hence, the gain from the rs wheat alone is no less than the copper and the stone together.

Let's see what else in Site2 besides the resource tiles. Since the 1 grassland copper and 1 plain hill stone in site1 was compared to the 2 grassland hills in site 2 already. The the rest tiles would be
Site 1 (3 plain, 1 lake ) vs Site 2 ( 1 rs grassland, 2 grassland, 1 rs plain). Do I need to say more?

Finally, don't forget the 10 levee hammers, which will be used for 50~100 turns in this game and the fact of 7 levee hammers waste in this map.

If capital was 2E this spot would have had much more overlap with the capital.

Again, you have not read my post carefully, that's 1E1NE.

 

[Dirk1302]

2E1N it is, just mistyped, the overlap is still there. This is rather long argument you take up here. there are a few things i noticed:

- So there is a riverside wheat. But there was no sure way of knowing that on the start. losing turns that early is significant
- In all the comparisons you make you compare hammers with hammers but a pre 1000 bc hammer > 1000 ad hammer.
- As i said we can build another city regaining 6 tiles for the levee. In fact all the results of your post are very dependent on how the other cities are placed.

In the end it's a matter of playing style i think. Not sure of course but i think ABigCivFan would sooner agree with you than i do. He always emphasizes the need to look ahead in specializing and specializing cities asap. I'm an opportunistic player, i like to start as fast as possible, expand as much as i can without losing turns and i am willing to do significant concessions in terms of ideal city placement just to get benefits of some resource ~ 15 turns sooner. Don't know what's best, we've all been successful with our way of playing.

 

[Duckweed]

2E1N it is, just mistyped, the overlap is still there. This is rather long argument you take up here. there are a few things i noticed:

- So there is a riverside wheat. But there was no sure way of knowing that on the start. losing turns that early is significant
- In all the comparisons you make you compare hammers with hammers but a pre 1000 bc hammer > 1000 ad hammer.
- As i said we can build another city regaining 6 tiles for the levee. In fact all the results of your post are very dependent on how the other cities are placed.

In the end it's a matter of playing style i think. Not sure of course but i think ABigCivFan would sooner agree with you than i do. He always emphasizes the need to look ahead in specializing and specializing cities asap. I'm an opportunistic player, i like to start as fast as possible, expand as much as i can without losing turns and i am willing to do significant concessions in terms of ideal city placement just to get benefits of some resource ~ 15 turns sooner. Don't know what's best, we've all been successful with our way of playing.

Overlap with capital is often good since you will get those cottages mature sooner and save some maintenance fee.

-Again the wheat in original site is also uncertain in the beginning. One early turn lost is not a big deal. I moved my capital in many games and I have never regretted for moving to riverside. (I moved 3 times in forum games I posted)

-True, however the levee hammers is huge, with amplifiers it could be 40H then.

-Again, 7 hammers will be wasted anyway and this is most important thing I emphasized in previous posts.

 

[Dirk1302]

Maybe, it's all very hard to quantify really. I'm curious how the others feel about this, not for the sake of being right or wrong but weighing pros and cons like this is instructive, it could well be that one of us or both overlooked something in the discussion sofar.

 

[Duckweed]

Having generated the map and seen the resources in WB, and knowing that there was copper, wheat and stone in the BFC of the settlers starting location meant I was yelling at my computer screen for the 4 or so pages you all spent discussing whether to move or not >.<

It's basically Rusten and me on that and Dirk made the final push.

 

[Snaaty]

For those of you interested:

I just started a second KING OF THE HILL GAME in the strats forum

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Nice set Duckweed!
Good thing Monty choosed to go north with his 4th settler as we'll be able to complete our blockage nicely... What site have you in mind for the settler? I thought we wanted it next to the wine tile, but Dirk's posts made me think perhaps consensus is on the river?

As fo techs, TW -> Writing? perhaps grabbing pottery is worth it to start cottaging St Pet. and for the prerequisite bonues. What do you think guys? Also what is the capital next build? a worker? We have only one currently (another being produced at St Pet.)

@Snaaty: Thanks for the invitation!

Roster duty:

Duckweed -> just played...
Dirk -> up!
Paulus -> on deck!

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

 

[Dirk1302]

We'll get the wine and we'll border Monty there anyway so this move won't annoy him further. But we'll lose the levee and also we will only be able to work tiles in first ring toward Monty. I don't think the wine is worth all that especially since we're out of happy trouble once we get monarchy. Monty will get monarchy before us, maybe he'll trade us the wine if he has another. So i'd suggest settling on the river.

We have stone in capital bfc and since i know many here like the mids, should i go for that and if so how? I'm more or less in favor of trying myself, Monty's blocked and i don't think there's anyone in the west. But maybe we just need more archers now and try later? If Monty decides to go for us pre 1000 bc building Mids could turn out to be a bad decision.

 

[shyuhe]

If Monty decides to go for us pre 1000 BC, I think we'll get creamed whether we build the pyramids or not. We don't have protective archers and can't build any decent cities on hills. So I think we just have to assume that we're not his first war target. Otherwise, I agree with settling riverside to grab the fish. We can get wine from the west so it's not that much of an issue.

 

[Duckweed]

The location of our 3rd city location is clear. Riverside for levee and extra health. Moreover we are creative, Monty has no competence for the wine when we have lib online.

Settling the gold city could be our next goal. I'd produce a couple workers in capital and then a settler to claim the gold next (an Axe might needed for defense in between). mids is worth a try next even we lose it.

Watch for Monty carefully, If he decide to go for us not too early, we should be able to defend, his UU sucks when facing Axes. A stack of 5 Axes should be enough to stop him.

 

[obsolete]

Having generated the map and seen the resources in WB, and knowing that there was copper, wheat and stone in the BFC of the settlers starting location meant I was yelling at my computer screen for the 4 or so pages you all spent discussing whether to move or not >.<

Grrr!!!!. Then you should have also been screaming when the decision was made to waste many more tech-turns on useless Archery, when we had copper in the BFC

 

[mystyfly]

Hi guys, I just returned from the holidays on Gran Canaria

I just had a glance at the last few pages. I think we're doing good, should get a decent amount of land, let's hope we get buddhism fast as well. Nice job on the 4 huts too, I rarely get that many on deity

I'm gonna have a look at the save and make some comments, I didn't read the posts too carefully, most was discussion about past events (though I like the amount of discussion ).


PS: I think there can be fewer than 4 resources in the capital if FPs are involved, they add a bit to that counter too IIRC.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Welcome back. I haven't taken too close a look at the save, the main question iirc is are we going for the mids or for more expansion/defense right now.

 

[PaulusIII]

I see no reason not to go for Mids. If Monty attacks we're screwed anyway, and I don't think we're able to afford more expansion. Economy first please...

 

[mystyfly]

OK had a look at the save now.

I think we have a good junk of land sealed off now and that there most likely is no other civ to the west of us on our continent (but we should keep an eye out for WBs) so we don't need to hurry settlers now.

I feel like we should try to get the mids. While it surely is hard, especially on deity, we have a good capital for early production. We have 7 forests in the BFC as well as 2 hills and stone on a hill.

Probably a more or less safe approach would be to tech masonry > wheel > fishing. We should use the settler for a city SE of wheat, grabbing fish and likely iron. That could be a strong GPFarm, 2 citizens produce 10 food. Also, since it's coastal it'd have soon a trade route with monty's cities and thus getting us buddhism sooner probably. Our currently only worker can, after the pasture, farm the riverside wheat while the new worker in st pete can improve the horse and FPs at St pete's. Moscow could build a worker until we have masonry, probably switch in another archer and then start on the mids, no big deal if the 5 hammers in the rax are lost. We should hook up stone asap, then copper. St Pete can take care of military with chariots until the cities are connected.

I am aware that this route is rather risky regarding barbs but I feel like gambling If we chop properly we can have a good shot at the mids.

I don't think we have much of a chance if monty attacks us, whether or not we go down the mids route. Let's hope we find another leader soon so we can find out whether or not monty is in WHEOOH.


Oh and I'd like to play the next set as I'll surely be around that week and at least get to play one set properly...

 

[shyuhe]

My computer is up and running again so you can put me back in the roster.

 

[Duckweed]

Don't expect too much for mids, generally it will have gone ~1500BC. It's unnecessary to sacrifice other things for it.

Getting DOWed from one AI does not mean the end of game. Unless Monty's SOD enter our border before 1500BC, we should be able to defend with Axes. I'd rather play it safely.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Agree with this, there are circumstances when defense is not possible, but here if we'll get attacked by Monty and have no defense after 1500 bc we'll have ourselves to blame here. So i'm intending to put safety first but i will keep an eye on Mids. Times that it goes are very variable even on deity we could also use the money. Will play tomorrow or friday.

 

[mystyfly]

You might have missed my request dirk, I would like to play the next set as it's the last time I can play before my "green holidays", I discussed this with ras. Is it ok for you if you play afterwards?

 

[Dirk1302]

I'm up in the always war game too so fine with me.