Deity challengers

[Duckweed]

We traded Alpha, Math atm, plus IW, sailing, and Monarchy in a few turns, we still have room for trading a few techs in the future. I am not sure how AI judge their score position, either based on the know opponents or total. If it is the latter, then there could be no WFYBTA thing if Brennus and/or Monty are not in the top 3. Moreover, the thing is that there's not many important techs needed in the near future, the only 1 or 2 tech I'd like to have are MC and Calender. When the AIs from other continent show up (mids and Oracles were built in other continent, so I think they won't show up too late), the number saved from Sailing become useless. Also Sailing is still better than 30g and will save us 1 or 2 turns to CoL and CS.

Monty will remain dangerous for us for long time. Not only during the peace treaty period, but also after his peace treaty with AC. Remember that we are a better land target than AC and that's why Monty DOW us 1st and you have seen how soon he selected his next target. That's why I prefer to war with AC. With shared religion, war and fair trade, Monty will become friendly very soon. Cat war is not that easy to handle as the Axe/Swordman war. Opposite to Dirk's point that AC will do fine on the war, I doubt how long AC can hold on considering his land area.

 

[shyuhe]

I think the score board limit is decided by known civs. So unless AC hops up, we'll hit WFYABTA with Monty and Brennus relatively soon (both limit 5). We traded the techs when they're in the classical era (I think) so we won't gain any back until they reach the medieval era. Basically unless we make them friendly very soon, we're not going to be able to tech trade with them.

 

[Dirk1302]

Interesting, did Monty declare on AC during the 10 turns peace treaty with us? If so Duckweed could be right. I'd have to check back (i will tonight) but i think the decision circle is very roughly like this:

first round target >= 8 tiles border
second round land target any tiles border more tiles is bigger chance but usually attitude'll be more important in this case.
third round other target

If i remember correctly than we should check for the amount of tiles AC shares with Monty. We have >=8 border tiles, if AC doesn't we're in more danger than i thought at first since shared tiles precedes attitude. I have to check all this.

As for the trades, go ahead. I wouldn't have done the sailing but there's no denying that trading sailing/iw saves us 5 turns. It might be just a matter of trading style, i used to trade more in the recent past too for relatively small techs (but not < iw), changed that style and was happy with it because it allowed me to massively trade mid game techs just at the moment i needed them. Here we will probably have met the others so we will have some opportunities as well.

 

[Duckweed]

Will play tonight.

 

[Duckweed]

Traded as planned, also did fur<->silk trade with Monty, I don't care about helping AIs, but care about faster positive diplomatic relation.

AC already lost one of his border cities to Brennus, here's another wave.

Next turn Monty took another AC's city.

Trade Monarchy with Brennus as planned.

Demand from Monty, there's no other choice but granted. In the same turn, Brennus demand us to cancel OB with AC, refused but I regreted why I did not cancel OB with AC myself.

Immediately I gifted CoL to Brennus since he can get it from Monty anyway. Better us than Monty.

We have not got any luck on random religion spread. So I started to produce missionary.

250AD Empire. Seems we'll lose the crab improvement since the barb galley made a sudden move last turn. I have not built any galley because I don't trust them. Only 2 galleys have high opportunity to kill one barb galley and they are not cheap atm.

Tech

Relation Glance -- AC lost another city to Brennus in this turn. I guess he will become vassal to either Brennus or Monty soon. This will open more trade opportunity, but again we need to watch for Monty carefully. Begging some cash from Monty when the war is finished should be done immediately.

 

[Dirk1302]

Looks good. AC didn't build enough praets apparently. If you use them right you can live very long.
This doesn't make our live any easier. Indeed Monty'll become a threat now. Can't bribe him against Brennus i think and friendly'll take some time. Worst case we'll need to build some defense in our border cities in the future to be able to react to a sneak attack from him after AC vassalazation (possible if Monty follows DAGGER-strat, only one turn warning in that case.) Smart move to begin building Shweda, don't have to bulb philo in that case.

 

[Duckweed]

AI's troops are balanced and hence they suck at war, especially in the defensive war.

 

[Dirk1302]

He probably just sat there with his praets while he was bombarded and collateralled to death.

 

[Duckweed]

That's why human players laugh at offensive war.

 

[shyuhe]

AC becoming a vassal is indeed bad news. Hopefully he'll join Brennus and not Monty. On the upside, once they make peace we should be able to trade without penalty with AC as well. Downside is ... a pleased but not friendly Monty.

AC isn't much of a troop spammer so it's not too surprising that he's getting owned by two warmongers. At least Brennus is an honorable one (doesn't declare at pleased).

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Popping in but can't look at the save before saturday ... I will comment then
Pretty good discussions guys... Mystyfly is up

@Mysty: I did found your comment a bit harsh too, let me use the if needed...

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

 

[Dirk1302]

In my case his comments were not entirely unfounded. I know Mysty longer than today and i know he meant well.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

That's OK then... I too think Mysty didn't mean to sound harsh, but his comment on Duckweed was a bit imo. End of story... we 'd better focus on the game (hopefully I'll be able to have a look before Mysty plays )

edit: I can't help but to think at the game even if haven't civ on the laptop How is AC's power compared to Monty and Brennus? How cap mechanisms work when the AI is double-teamed? Does Monty needs twice AC's power to vassalize him or is it the sum of Brennus and Monty power which is considered (like in dogpiles)?

 

[Dirk1302]

I was very wrong about AC holding out. It's often just hard to tell. Sometimes an ai from which you think "he'll go down soon" holds out for ages. Sometimes the opposite happens as here. Indeed AC has relatively low unit spam rate. I think the other Caesar would still be standing proud now. As you can see in my last screenshot he built too much cats which he probably never used. Probably spent them for some collat damage, Bren healed and proceeded to just take the cities. Sadly for AC he isn't good at anything, his military sucks, his teching tends to suck and he doesn't expand that well.

Apart from watching Monty we have same issues as after my set. Duckweed's building Shweda, if that succeeds we don't need a bulb philo. On deity philo can usually be traded for when you have edu. It's a good move, i like it.

 

[obsolete]

Well... I'd hate to tell you I warned you so....

but well... I did warn you so...



Now why is it nobody ever listens to me?

Anyhow... I still have some faith in you Dirk

 

[Dirk1302]

You said he would hold with iron. I believed you.

 

[obsolete]

But.. but.. but..... all the experts on the GENERAL forum tell me winning deity is all about Pratts!!!

What's happened?

 

[obsolete]

By the way, since you are planning to eventually DoW on AC anyway, and seems you've submitted yourself to dogpiling on AC just for diplo-reasons, you may want to do it RIGHT.

I suggest, before you DoW him, run a bunch of demands first. He will refuse, but there's an exploit here, you can keep doing the same demand in one turn, until you max out your diplo penalties. THEN, you can DoW him, so you get say.. -4 for demands, then -3 for war, etc. If you can get AC as your worst enemy, great. Now you run a bunch of deals with the other two, and all of them get the -4 for trading with his worst enemy. So.. no matter who he vassals to, you can still hamper their tech-trade deals to slow them down a bit.

This wont work in the new path though...

 

[Duckweed]

Apart from watching Monty we have same issues as after my set. Duckweed's building Shweda, if that succeeds we don't need a bulb philo. On deity philo can usually be traded for when you have edu. It's a good move, i like it.

My primary goal to build SW is for cash, but I would not mind to finish it if we can. 4 turns to complete it if we chop the 2 remaining forests in capital.

My suggestion for next tech:
Philosophy or Drama->Philosophy (since there's a good chance that Monty and Brennus will research CS)

The usage of coming GS:
Golden age when we trade CS. Save us 2 turns of necessary anarchy and enable fastest GS production for lib race. In the end of the GA, we can then change back to slavery and OR for infrastructures and diplomatic bonus with Brennus.

 

[shyuhe]

Since the religion is gone, burning the GS for a golden age sounds good. Do we have Buddhism spread to the cities that we would farm GP from?