Deity challengers

[shyuhe]

I have no idea where Brennus is or whether he's been in a war...

As for testing for iron, you can contact the AI repeatedly and see what units they "threaten" you with. If they have swords (and iron), they'll eventually say "fear my swordsman." Not terribly efficient but it's a good way to see if they have iron.

I think opening borders with AC isn't bad for us in the long run. It'll give us a bigger lead on Monty tech-wise. And once we absorb Monty's land, AC won't be able to stop us unless he's way ahead in tech (unlikely with judicious bribes).

 

[Rusten]

Found out about Brennus by clicking on Montezuma and then AC in the F4 screen. You'll get the red text "worst enemy of Brennus" because Montezuma knows Brennus. Brennus has to be to the NE of AC.

 

[DMOC]

Lurker comment: I wonder why that bug never got fixed.

Anyway, good luck guys, hopefully you'll get a win. This game looks tough, just like the Deity of Random game.

 

[obsolete]

I think the mil advisor wouldn't show axes/swords if we haven't got iw.

If this is to be the case, then surely the game still is bugged, because we should not be able to see any flat-land mines. So keeping this TOP-SECRET info... as TOP-SECRET is rather a joke. A little investigation goes a long way...

 

[Dirk1302]

175 bc:
Check cities but all is as it should be, not that i expected otherwise. I have to overcome the urge to put cottages on the fp's. Farms it is. Some cities can work scientists but are one point below happy cap so i leave them alone for now.

150 bc:
Monty asks us to drop relations with AC.

I almost never give in to such demands especially not if they're at war with someone else (you have to sometimes if you have no military at all and the ai isn't at war but it hurts immensely). You can lose a trade partner for >1000 years, we cannot afford that. Monty drops to cautious. Monty values religion so he'll get to pleased again later. We'll have +4 for fair trade coming too in the future.

We lose the Parthenon to Monty this turn,early for this wonder. Here's why.

125 bc:
Olmec Pacified

100 bc:
More bad news from the wonder/tech front.

Some others than Monty this time. A workboat begins exploring the southern coast. Hope i don't meet a barb galley.

75 bc:
Again Monty comes a knocking, this time he wants us to declare on AC.

Answer's no and he drops to cautious again.Capital and several other cities have reached happy cap. I put on scientists and work as many mines possible. The slider is put to 10% due to working gold in after the first farm. It doubles our science rate at 80 bpt. We almost look respectable now and we haven't got currency yet.


50 bc:
We lose the alpha trade with Monty (i checked the trade every turn). Must have traded with Brennus. Too bad, actually not such a problem. Sailing'll be cheap in a few turns and wfyabta is not totally unimportant in our situation. Begin to chop out a library in beautiful Olmec, good that we have math.

25 bc:
Northern coast is really infested with barb galleys. Western coast's not good too

We really need to whip a few galleys after sailing as MC is far away yet. MoM is built in a far away land.

1 ad:
Meet Brennus who hates us already.

He's the most advanced ai and no 1 in score atm. He's at war with AC again. There is an enormous amount of hatred going between AC and Brennus. We're going to lose some fish in the near future, if i'm correct galley can't take the fish near Vladi as it's not coastal.

25 ad:

Currency in, doesn't do that much immed as most of our routes become domestic. By switching research to wealth i get 15 bpt more. I could have researched sailing at this point in 2 turns but there are some important decisions to be made. Checking the techscreen no civ seems to have turns into currency, can't really see with Brennus who's annoyed. The following deals can be made:

(1) currency for 100 gold + iw + sailing or 130 gold + one of these techs with Monty

(2) currency for iw + sailing with Augustus

(3) currency for 40 gold with Brennus but we can then open borders + do trade with Brennus.

(4) fish for silk with monty, can also get 6 gpt.

My take:

(1) i'd like to have the 130 gold from Monty but i'm not that anxious for some of his techs. Not asking techs in return works on our fair trade bonus too
(2) Rather trade with Monty for extra gold
(3) I'd take 40 gold from Brennus for better relations too. But maybe we should wait till sailing's in to see if he's got some more gold, could be 0 gold for several turns too though.
(4) We could use the extra happy but the 6 gpt's more important as we can only run 2 scientists/city atm and have more than enough food to sustain them.

We need galleys to fight the barb galleys, not ideal but we're losing out with a fish going to be destroyed and a crab that can't be worked right now.Crab is often rare so we can probably sell it profitably.

Overview:

I think we're in very good position, we have a big chunk of very good land, those silvers and extra furs will give us a commanding trade position in the future. Diplo also looks fine with AC getting all the hits.

No need to worry too much about AC, i think he'll hold out against Bren and Monty for some time.

 

[shyuhe]

Nice! We're pulling a pretty respectable 100 bpt at 25 AD even after suffering an early war. Taoism being founded is unfortunate, as it'll make at least one of the AI prioritize liberalism more. Not much we can do about that though.

I would prefer the gold from Monty rather than a crappy tech. So IW + gold for currency, sell currency to Brennus and OB with him, and I don't know what to do with AC. His tech rate is going to start suffering soon from his war with Monty and Brennus so maybe it's better to see if he stays backwards?

Is teching to OR worth the trouble? Brennus loves OR and is probably running it. Plus it'll give us a slight production bonus.

 

[Dirk1302]

Our bpt at 100% = 133 bpt iirc. Only a bit below average 1 AD. I'm not too worried about lib, might well lose it but enough land really. One good trade and you get that tech you'd had gotten from lib. The chance of getting that trade is better if we self research all minor techs.

I'm not so sure about the general thought that philo leads to lib beeline btw. In my experience paper leads to lib beeline more often, philo is often the beginning of a nationalism then either constitution or mil trad beeline.

Following are some thoughts not to well organized on techpath, don't know if it all makes sense.

We could indeed take time out to tech OR, Good relations with Brennus are important,probably won't get him to friendly any time soon. Unfortunately we will probably switch pacifism/caste after philo bulb. Alternatively we could use the second GS for academy. In that case we won't have much bulbing power left but more natural research. If we were to go that way i'd suggest going nationalism->constitution directly, a totally different way of playing, i think it would be possible to get there around 1100 AD and after constitution we'll have > 500 bpt for sure. Don't have to decide yet, decision time comes with the next GS. Much as i'd like the nationalism->constitution plan it might well be that the normal route bulbing education trading for nationalism is better. If the other 3 ais are on another continent astro becomes a very important tech, in that case holding off on cs going machinery-> optics->double bulb astro could be strong.
If we were sure we'd get lib from bulbing i'm sure that's strongest, if not one of the other plans could be better. Come to think of it we could also combine chances. Bulb philo we'll get another scientist soon, build academy (this is best in most scenarios i think). Then bulb edu but set rest of research to nationalism, also bulb lib. Astro plan is out in this case or we have to get to paper via theo route (faster than cs btw but certainly not better as buro is not useless for this capital). In the end our empire is so focused on gpp in multiple cities with all the food and no cottages that we'll have to run pacifism whatever we do i think

As for the deals, actually i wouldn't take IW either from Monty just the gold. There are much better deals to make around 500-1000 AD.IW is probably 3 turns now. Also we'll get fair trade sooner.

 

[Duckweed]

Got it, I'll take a look tomorrow.

 

[obsolete]

Hmm!! So you did not take my advice on trading Alpha for IW, and now it has cost you a very expensive tech.... for nothing.

Argghghgh!!!!!! You guys definitely try my patience in this game!!!!!!!

Anyway, I have trust in you Dirk... you can still do it!

 

[Dirk1302]

Thx , yes i think we can . As i explained in my posts i don't care much about losing the trade for IW, think we shouldn't trade for it even now. It's not that expensive anymore and it wasn't really missed unless we pop lots of irons near our cities once we get it. With Brennus and Monty near it's imo important to be very careful with wfybta. Once we get some some trade fodder like edu, nat or whatever we can get 3 good techs for it 2 or 3 times but not if we're trading for things like sailing, IW, construction etc now.

 

[shyuhe]

Liberalism for astro is the first sling that comes to mind for me here. Overseas trade routes will be lucrative, especially if the stupid AI aren't in mercantilism (which I hate). We've gone through 1 GS so far, right? So if we use pacifism and NE, I think we can get 3-4 GS before 1100 AD. That leaves either academy + education + liberalism (shooting for astro or towards constitution) or academy + double bulb astro (intriguing as well).

Caste goes well with pacifism and also our land - which is very flat. I am inclined to go with specialists and farm/workshop through the renaissance, at which point we war for more land. We did a similar strategy in one of our immortal SG games with great success. And Monty doesn't tech well in general so if we can get a military advantage, we should be able to hurt him.

I can't look at the save right now but is the music GA still available? If so, then there probably isn't a serious tech whore on the map, which increases our odds of getting liberalism.

 

[Dirk1302]

Is there an easy way to see? Checked the log but unless i missed some no GA in my set. The other plans are interesting imo but i have that nagging feeling that a plain bulb to lib might just be best boring as it is. Once CS is in the bulbing to get there is really fast. And even if we miss it edu will be very good for trade. We have stone too and lots of whipping power so we can build Oxford with our eyes closed. This'll need a possibly nasty switch back to slavery though (if no GA). With early guilds we could build them on workshops but i think that's too far off in this game. So maybe we could burn a gs on a GA as we probably get one back with the faster gpp production. If we're serious about lib we bulb lib first, then either take nationalism, build Taj or burn a gs on GA for civic switches and fast oxford. If we miss lib before we bulb it we can also start the GA. Looking at the save capital will build uni fast, 4 can also be chopped but the last one poses a bit of a problem.

 

[shyuhe]

The only way is to look through the log for any GA that are born. It used to be that Homer was always the GA for music but they changed that There aren't many early GA wonders though - the aesthetics ones are the very first. So unless a civ is philosophical and the first wonder it builds is the parthenon, NE, or HE, the first GA in the game is usually from music.

Even if we build Oxford early, how are we going to leverage it against Monty? Slavery or caste/guilds workshops are the two solutions I see.

 

[Dirk1302]

If we were to build Oxford early we'll have lots of options techwise especially if we'd get constitution. Once we have guilds/chemistry workshops 'll provide enough production for troops. Slavery also works without guilds/chem but hurts gpp production and also science to some extent.

 

[Duckweed]

1. About trade

I won't worry about the WFYBTA issue, we are in a Buddhism club and it won't be difficult to have Brennus to friendly in later stage. Also we can get trade from other continent pretty soon. So I'd like to trade Currency to Monty for IW+Sailing+Gold for now instead with AC since I don't want to further annoy Monty. I actually tend to agree on Monty's request of war with AC -- the only way that we are able to eliminate the danger of Monty's DOW and getting 2 AIs to friendly quickly. AC is not much useful for trading in this game. I'm with Obsolete this time that we should trade Alpha for IW early, even gifting it to Monty would be a better choice than holding it. Also we need some Swordsman to conquer the last barb city and 300 beakers is not trivial.

I don't want to give Currency to Brennus for 40g, instead I will gift him 10g to bump him to cautious and expect something like Monarch from him. OB + stone<->8g then.

Fish<->6g with Monty as Dirk suggested.

2. Tech

Mys->Med->Priest->CoL->CS
I don't think there's much chance for the free GA under the situation that GL had gone turns ago. CoL and CS's effect are instant and also have good trade value. For the future plan, Lib route is still my choice, Lib takes Nat sounds safer than Astro and Taj deserves our effort with marble.

 

[Dirk1302]

Gifting 10 to Brennus is a better idea than trading currency, i agree. The +4 from fair trade bonus will be shortlived in this case so some further lopsided trades will be needed. Not so sure we'll get Brennus and Monty to friendly fast. If not AC will be our only trade partner soon if we trade for iw and sailing now. We need OR to get Brennus to friendly and he has to forget about our trading with AC (-4 atm) too. We won't run OR for quite some time. After rebuking all Monty's demands we won't get him to friendly that easy too. I don't want to trade too much with Monty anyway.
Monty at pleased is probably safe. He'll go for AC again unless there's a 10 turn truce. In that case there is a ~1/10 chance per turn he'll make a decision to goto war. At pleased there's 80% chance that this decision will be overruled.

Thought about the trades, IW might indeed big enough to trade for, still not taking it helps with fair trade.Maybe we should have traded it for alpha, we discussed it and took a chance on Monty not getting it. Sailing is less than 2 turns now, i definitely wouldn't trade for it. If you take both techs you'll miss 30 gold btw.

Meeting the oversee ais will help but,
-We don't know when we'll meet them
-Having Brennus and Monty in the circle might still be valuable.

 

[shyuhe]

I agree about gifting gold to Brennus to bring him to cautious. He'll hopefully OB then as well. Currency for monarchy would be ideal, although there are a couple of pre-reqs we'll need to get there.

Short-term, I'd tech sailing followed by the cheap techs to open up OR, so that we can try to please Brennus.

If we remain at pleased with Monty, I think we'll be relatively safe since he'll hate Augustus a lot more.

 

[Dirk1302]

Are you suggesting we should run OR instead of pacifism? Or do you want to do an extra civic switch running OR before we run pacifism, doubt that is worth it unless we don't bulb philo with our first GS. We don't need Bren friendly right now but when we hit the wfyabta limit.

 

[shyuhe]

We will have to be building lots of infra soon, so depending on when we switch to pacifism, OR may be worth it. If we are going to bulb philosophy (which we are debating now I think), then yes pacifism > OR.

 

[Dirk1302]

True we're not totally clear on bulbing pacifism next. I think it's best though as we get our next GS soon in that case.