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Deity cookbook I: Gilgamesh from Sumeria

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Dirk1302, Nov 28, 2008.

  1. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Hi all,

    @Dirk: yeap I (and probably a lot of people with Christmas) lack time, so will try to post a 1000 AD report... but it's unlikely I will find time to make an intermediate post... :(

    Cheers
     
  2. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    I'm curious then, what if a player comes in say, after the 17'th for the first time. Is he locked into playing which-ever is voted at that time, or can he choose say, a poor one down on the list because of strong suspicion it has been underrated for going against the norm?
     
  3. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    I don't think we have discussed this. I don't have an objection against doing this.
     
  4. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    I continued ABCF's 1AD save to 1000AD according to the detailed plan he had laid out, so if you like my save, it's mainly thanks to his directions.

    Up to 500 AD
    Spoiler :

    No new cities. Focus is on getting liberalism.
    1AD - switch to meditation
    25 AD - bulb philosophy.
    100 AD - civil service. Set research to Paper
    Jewish Apostolic Palace built in Mutal.

    125 AD burn a GS on a golden age. Covert/revolt to bureacracy+pacifism+judaism. Eridu and Uruk focus on generating great scientists.

    Trade CS for Feudalism

    150 AD Feudalism for MC.

    200 AD Saladin requests my help for a war against Shaka, and I gladly agree. This brings him to cautious despite different religion and enables trading some techs. I think this proved to be a good step because Saladin is annoyed with Pacal and doesn't trade with him, enabling me to be a broker between them.

    Trade Calendar with Saladin.

    GS born in Eridu

    225 AD Trade Currency (If I remember correctly, it was Saladin).

    250 AD Paper done. Start University of Sankore in the capital. With the AP bonus jewish monastries and temples would be useful.

    275 AD GS in Uruk

    300 AD Last turn of golden age - switch to slavery+organized religion.

    450AD Discover education (bulbed once).

    Now working on compass (2 turns left). There is another GS ready to bulb liberalism after compass is done.

    Univeristy of Sankore is ready in 2 turns in the capital, after that it is time to build universities everywhere.

    Tech status:

    City details:
    Spoiler :









    Number of workers: 11
    Army : 5 vultures, archer, 2 warriors, 1 galley
    Great people: 1GS (for liberalism bulb)

    Plans: bulb liberalism, take nationalism as free tech and build taj. Tech constitution and get oxford. Run specialist economy to get a tech advantage for a reneissance war. Settle 2~3 more cities.



    I will post my 1000 AD report and save shortly.
     
  5. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    500 AD to 1000 AD

    Spoiler :


    520 AD discover compass and bulb liberalism.
    Start massive trading. Since both Suleiman and Pacal are friendly, and since I haven't met the other continent yet, I try to trade as much as possible without caring about WFYABTA.
    I trade with Saladin first, because after all my trades with the others he will become WFYABTA.

    540 AD trade for machinery, theology, music, construction

    580 AD Liberalism->Nationalism. I decide to start taj mahal in Kish. It's not the fastest place, and Pacal will get nationalism in a few turns, but I know he doesn't have marble and doesn't have a GE. Kish needs the extra culture.


    600 AD Trade for horseback riding, engineering.

    700 AD Nationalism to Suleiman for Guilds+500 gold (Pacal will get nationalism in 1 turn)


    760 AD Education to Suleiman for gunpowder.
    Begin oxford in the capital

    780 AD Taj complete, golden age begins.
    Education +Gunpowder to pacal for optics, drama, banking (sounds like a rip-off, but Pacal had most of education done)

    860 AD Discover constitution.

    880 AD Constitution+liberalism to Suleiman for Astronomy
    I can see what Pacal is researching and I can tell I can finish economic 1 turn earlier than him if some cities will build science, so I set research to economics.

    900 AD Representation, slavery, merc, theocracy.
    I think I made a mistake to stay in bureacracy. I should have gone for nationalism. I also forgot to build theatres and globe during the GA.

    920 AD Economics race is won. Free GM.


    I start researching printing press, but I change my mind once I see Pacal is researching it, switched to miliatry tradition.
    Once I switched to Representation Suleiman is no longer friendly and doesn't trade anymore. Pacal is still friendly and therefore will trade printing press.

    I am planning to attack with Cavalry. Lagash has HE and can build 1 war elephant per turn, once I get rifling I can mass upgrade them with the cash from the GM. Cavalry can take a few cities while I am researching steel. The first war will probably be a quick Cavalry grab witha narrow window of oppurtunity until the opponent has rifling. The second war will be protective rifles+cannons vs. rifles.

    I managed to get a reasonable trade for iron with Darius (horse,cow,rice,copper, marble), so I can start building cuirassiers soon for cheaper upgrades.

    Oh, I also have a chance to circumvent the globe. I traded map with everyone and to my surprise no one has done it yet.

    I have used the walls overflow for cash exploit in some cities taking advantage of protective and stone to maintain 100% research most of the time. Currently I have 866 gold and -91 per turn with +524 bpt.
    I have some more cities that can whip walls so I expect to keep 100% research for some time now.
    BTW, do you consider this an exploit or a legitimate game mechanic?

    Tech Status:


    I built 3 more cities (1 captuerd from barbs), but may have done this a bit too late. I am not sure this cities will be up in time to be of any real contibution to the war effort, but at least they will whip some units in the 2nd war.

     

    Attached Files:

  6. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    I played CivFan's save as well, to 1000ad:
    Spoiler :

    I haven't played much Deity so this promises to be a challenge even playing from such an extremely strong save (thanks :goodjob: ) I tried to skip over most of the comments on "plans for the next round" so I may have missed some sound advice :mischief:

    After looking carefully at the save here are my initial thoughts:
    -I'd like more land before this game is finished :)
    -We are in a great position to win the Liberalism race
    -More workers!
    -No Iron ...

    So I have a plan that I haven't even tried on Immortal: A focused Artillery beeline. This will require a sound research ability and a strong GP generator. I need a few great scientists:
    -1 for philo
    -1 for a GA
    -2 for Edu
    -2 At least two for Sci Meth
    -2 At least two for Physics

    In all I will need Rifling+Steel+Physics before I can start on Artillery -- I'm going to avoid Constitution,Democracy,and Biology until after the Artillery war. Wise? Ummm, maybe ...

    So how did the round go?

    Overview of my plans:



    In particular I want to borrow the capitals Corn for my NE city. I thought about moving the capital to Lagash for a better Bur capital, but since we already have an Academy in Uruk I let it be.

    After finishing CS, I got Med, bulbed Philo and fired off a GA for anarchy free civics switching -- Org Rel during the GA, Pacifism on the last turn. By stealing the capitals copper Eridu finished the NE in 7 turns :cool:

    I was very nearly embarrassed by Pacal -- bearly managing to steal this barb city from his knights (two archers killed the last barbarian :mischief: )



    Lots of tech trading -- Suleiman + Pacal are friendly so no WFYABTA fears.

    For Lib I took a vital tech, needed for a SciMeth bulb access as well as a prereq for Phys:



    Joao was still out of Merc so we got 55 commerce in trade without giving him a cent (for a few hundred years anyways).

    This seemed like a good idea:



    True circumnavigation (this could be useful later):



    I'm fairly happy with the situation at 1000ad, Artillery is still a possibility.

    Tech:



    About 4-5 turns ago Pacal+Sulei declared on Sal and his Vassal Shaka. Not great, maybe trade tech for peace?



    My last university will finish in 2-turns, Oxford will be built here. Cottages were just laid over farms -- this was slower than I had hoped for. (Uruk will get its corn back soon too.)



    The NE in action:



    The HE is finally going up as well:



    And the Empire:



    1000ad Situation

    I have two GSci sleeping, and two more in ~10 turns. Double bulbing SciMeth+Physics can be done soon. Rifling is also about 10-12 turns away.

    Pacal is 2-turns from Astro so trading it soon could be a good idea.

    Should the war against Saladin be stopped? I'm think a scout down there would be a good idea ...

    Since SciMeth has been a target most cities don't have Jewish monasteries (the AP is Jewish) and I skipped Sankore.

    Comments on "things to do better at Deity" would be great.
     
  7. Gunner Jones

    Gunner Jones Chieftain

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    Another information request. I've been attempting to recreate the games from the saves / logs. I seem to be able to track progress on most of the games till about CS then lose touch. I'll often win the Lib race but seem to be at parity - I note ABC, Snaaty, Dirk seem to achieve impressive tech leads so have to assume they are trading very carefully.

    My suspicion is that there are some basics I'm missing:

    1. Sequencing - e.g. build NE then run for Lib or beeline Lib building NE later
    2. Trades understanding of when/what to trade/hold (Phil, Paper, Edu?)
    3. Using GA to avoid anarchy / whip Uni's etc.
    4. Managing relations (I tend to give in to all powerful / close Civs and am probably way too casual regarding who I trade with).
    5. Espionage?

    Be grateful for any additional commentary.

    Gunner.
     
  8. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Hi gunner,

    the idea after CS, is to trade for mettalurgy and compass so you can bulb paper , edu and lib... Basically you don't want to trade away education before you get liberalism. It can be wise to trade for stuff like machinery, music once your bulbs are done to open up more tech choices from lib (of course you can also trade or research bigger stuff if the situation allows).
    Without marble and nearby warmongers, I find pacifism a good alternative to the NE...
    About relations: imo the key is to know the AIs you are dealing with: who will attack at pleased? who is a nice trader, who cares about religion, what are their favorite civics... also one thing to remember at high levels is that you can beg at pleased without diplo penalty. As the AI do that all the time, don't hesitate to beg archery, small religious techs, money... sometimes even happy resources!

    Small input I know, but I have still a lot to learn to be competent at this level... :)

    Cheers
     
  9. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    @Gunner Jones

    1.
    I try to build NE before lib, easy with marble, not always possible without as there are other things to do as well.

    2.
    This is very important but there are no hard rules. I often research a few turns into techs so i can trade on 1 tech for 1 basis. I always try to look ahead if i can get techs other ais don't have so i can trade to a third party next round.

    3.
    I try to plan it this way, it's not always possible. some civic switches are so important, to buro pacifism for instance, that i make them asap.

    4.
    I hate giving away big techs. There really must be a great risk attacehd to refusing to do so. If someone like Pacal asks i laugh long and loud.

    5.
    In this game i set all ep to Pacal. I could see exactly what he was doing so i could plan all my research accordingly. The only techs i fully researched manually after CS iirc were paper/gunpowder and economics. Did some part research and a lot of bulbing(philo/edu/lib)/trading

    @RRRaskolnikov, asking for archery is not so great, getting it this way counts toward wfyabta. I always forget to ask for gold but i do beg for the free resource occasionally.
     
  10. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Tx Dirk! I didn't know that... I guess the money and resources will be enough then. :)
     
  11. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    Gunner, some more tips:

    1) Before you start a tech, make sure you have enough gold to get it at 100% research (run 100% gold for a few turns if needed). This ensures that you don't waste beakers into techs that the AI is already researching.

    2) When trading with the the AI, always select the tech you want from them and the techs you will give, and then press "what would make this deal work". This is how you get the best offer. If you press "what do you want for this?" or "what will you give me for this" you will get ridiculous offers.

    3) Whenever possible trade with AIs for cash. Meaning, you give an expensive tech for a cheaper tech+cash, or you give a cheap tech for cash only. If you are familiar with WFYABTA mechanics you know that you should not trade for too many cheap techs.
    Cash can be converted to beakers in a very good ratio in the early game (academy, library, monastery, bureacracy), so it can help keep 100% reseach for most of the early game.

    4) Protective+Stone=wall overflow exploit. If you build walls until the last turn, then whip them, and chop a few forests in the same turn you get something like 300~400 hammers in the queue. That will give you walls and a nice cash overflow of 200~300 gold.

    5) Try to get 2 or 3 techs for every tech you research (this is probably the most important tip). This is done by very careful trading - examine the options you have to trade, but also the options the AI have to trade and their relations.
    For example, in this game Suleiman and Pacal are friendly (shared religion and favourite civic), meaning they will trade everything with each other. You need to avoid situations that they trade for a tech you gave them. So if I give something to Pacal, I first make sure that there is nothing he can get from Suleiman and vice versa. Alternatively, if I can trade with both of them on the same turn it's ideal - it doesn't always happen since they will not always have something useful to trade.
    Similarly, in my game Saladin traded with me and with Suleiman but not with Pacal, so I knew it was safe to give him techs that Pacal didn't have (but Suleiman did).

    6) Friendly AIs are very important to avoid WFYABTA, but that doesn't mean you have to gift them education 1 turn after bulbing it, friendship has its limits.
     
  12. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    ^This wall trick is very neat. I knew about it but didn't use it, also since i was fairly busy building other things and didn't have too much cash problems. So it can be used now in my save as i don't have single wall atm. I don't think it's an exploit btw, just one of the advantages of the protective trait.

    I generally agree on 1. Between 500 BC and 500 AD the ais often get huge amounts of gold since they miss out on wonders. So i often set the slider as high as i can since 100% gold maybe wasteful if there's a bag of gold just around the corner.
     
  13. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    On the one hand, I sort of do consider the wall trick an exploit because I know firaxis didnt' quite intend it to be taken advantage of that way.

    HOWEVER.

    The trait is still laughed at by most people, so I do not see something WRONG in giving it a little extra (boost) to add some life into it. After all, consider that trait to ummmm Spiritual. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    I never bother doing it anyhow though so it really doesn't matter. On the other hand, I'll take advantage of building wealth through wonders all the time.

    BTW, I think your save Dirk is the best one, though a few things I still don't like in it.
     
  14. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    Dirk: don't research rifling if you want to use the walls trick. For maximum effect (very hard to micro-manage), you need forge, org. religion, build walls until 1 hammer is left, and take it off queue, build something else until 1 turn left and whip it, then complete the wall by whipping it, while chopping 3 forests.

    If Firaxis decides to "fix" this bug later I hope they will do something to compensate for the trait. Even as it is this exploit is pretty situational and probably isn't worth it without stone.
     
  15. carl corey

    carl corey Deity

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    There's more than the protective wall thing; IIRC an example Dresden gave was building Chariots in the HE city which can also give insane amounts of money, much more than you could get by directly producing gold. Hence he considered it a bug and it has been corrected in the unofficial patch, version 0.21.
     
  16. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    ^All present and accounted for except the forests. I like the way you played ABigCivFan's save btw, looks very solid all around.

    @Obsolete, i sometimes like protective on deity, not in this game however. What do you not like in my save? Personally i think i should have had Oxford by now, i'm busy preparing but there was just too much else to build. Especially in the border cities i gave priority to synagogues and hermitage, otherwise i probably would have finished it by now. I also don't like everyone being in merc but i'm not the only suffering from this and it can hardly be helped.Also ais are a bit more advanced in my game and i'm afraid i have myself to blame for this :lol:.
     
  17. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    What I didnt' like was... you have too many settlers right now... and too much time & hammers was wasted on cottages. Also I don't like your civics, (but now your got tied to them cause of the cottages). And I really don't like the city builds.

    6 cities is enough!

    Now, that I have butchered your save up. Let me re-iterate that I still think it's the best (I guess this means I insulted everyone else too?).

    Regardless, I think it's impossible to lose this game at this point.
     
  18. silverbullet

    silverbullet King

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    Olodune:
    Spoiler :

    I have never seen an artillery beeline, but this definitely seems promising.

    Why won't you build 100% cash until oxford is finished?
    I would have even delayed printing press until after oxford because you don't need it that much yet - not that many villages on the map.

    You can afford to delay research for 10 turns or so to get a much faster deficit research later. Right now you have 322 bpt for -89 gold, you could probably get something like 420bpt for the same amount after oxford.

    Also, don't self research replaceable parts, trade it for liberalism+astronomy if possible.

    Some other points:
    1)if you chose to cottage spam the capital, I think you should have built a helper city 3S of it to work it's cottages. The capital should not work a 2f/1c tile. It can work mines instead to get observatory and oxford faster, while the junk city is there to grow it's cottages.

    2) Why are there farms on the riverside plains in Lagash? I would expect a workshop and after RP maybe a watermill. A plain farm is just a waste of a tile (and it's good to see that you are not working these farms).

     
  19. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    Thanks for the feedback silverbullet :)

    Spoiler :

    -> I saw Pacal getting PP, and realized I could get it on the same turn, trading it for gunpowder + ?? before he spread it around. Suleiman just got Rep Parts, I was hoping to trade it for Nat. Building a gold reserve would have been a better plan. :goodjob:

    -> Agreed. A junk city was probably the way to go. Stealing the corn for Lagash may have hurt more than an extra GSci will help (in the longish run). Uruk will switch to max. production in 2-turns for Oxford.


    -> :lol: Yeah ... I built one farm thinking I needed to irrigate the rice. No excuse at all for the other. There are two more grass tiles that need farms to the south -- I'll put workshops on those plains tiles as the population grows. An interesting side effect of early SciMeth is that Communism is right around the corner -> I think it makes sense to research it while building troops. State Property would enable easy workshop spam -- as well as make Darius/Joao juicy (and relatively backward) targets for the Artillery war.

    Thanks again.
     
  20. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    @Olodune:

    Artillary sounds very interesting. Given the current GPP level, how many turns do you estimate it will take to get it?

    Artillary can not be flanked for a very long time, it is like a wonder-weapon if you can pull this off. But in this particular game, I do expect you will face AI infantry (especially Sulei) when you get it. But CR2 artillary against infantry should still be good.

    Only probelms I see:

    1. when you dont get GS as planned
    2. our raw beaker count is still low, even if you double bulb these expensive techs you still need to research the rest
    3. Sci. method obsoletes GL/Parthenon and greatly reduces your GPP

    My plan was to go for Pacal for Iron and use Cannons/Grenadiars, which is easier to achieve. CR2 cannons against Muskets/knights is also a slaughter but the downside is cannons can be flanked by Curies/Cavs.
     

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