Deity cookbook I: Gilgamesh from Sumeria

RRRaskolnikov · Dec 15, 2008

Hi all,

@Dirk: yeap I (and probably a lot of people with Christmas) lack time, so will try to post a 1000 AD report... but it's unlikely I will find time to make an intermediate post...

Cheers

obsolete · Dec 15, 2008

You are allowed to play your own save twice in a row...

I'm curious then, what if a player comes in say, after the 17'th for the first time. Is he locked into playing which-ever is voted at that time, or can he choose say, a poor one down on the list because of strong suspicion it has been underrated for going against the norm?

Dirk1302 · Dec 15, 2008

I don't think we have discussed this. I don't have an objection against doing this.

silverbullet · Dec 15, 2008

I continued ABCF's 1AD save to 1000AD according to the detailed plan he had laid out, so if you like my save, it's mainly thanks to his directions.

Up to 500 AD

Spoiler :

I will post my 1000 AD report and save shortly.

silverbullet · Dec 15, 2008

500 AD to 1000 AD

Spoiler :

Olodune · Dec 16, 2008

I played CivFan's save as well, to 1000ad:

Spoiler :

Gunner Jones · Dec 16, 2008

Another information request. I've been attempting to recreate the games from the saves / logs. I seem to be able to track progress on most of the games till about CS then lose touch. I'll often win the Lib race but seem to be at parity - I note ABC, Snaaty, Dirk seem to achieve impressive tech leads so have to assume they are trading very carefully.

My suspicion is that there are some basics I'm missing:

1. Sequencing - e.g. build NE then run for Lib or beeline Lib building NE later
2. Trades understanding of when/what to trade/hold (Phil, Paper, Edu?)
3. Using GA to avoid anarchy / whip Uni's etc.
4. Managing relations (I tend to give in to all powerful / close Civs and am probably way too casual regarding who I trade with).
5. Espionage?

Be grateful for any additional commentary.

Gunner.

RRRaskolnikov · Dec 16, 2008

Gunner Jones said:
Another information request. I've been attempting to recreate the games from the saves / logs. I seem to be able to track progress on most of the games till about CS then lose touch. I'll often win the Lib race but seem to be at parity - I note ABC, Snaaty, Dirk seem to achieve impressive tech leads so have to assume they are trading very carefully.

My suspicion is that there are some basics I'm missing:

1. Sequencing - e.g. build NE then run for Lib or beeline Lib building NE later
2. Trades understanding of when/what to trade/hold (Phil, Paper, Edu?)
3. Using GA to avoid anarchy / whip Uni's etc.
4. Managing relations (I tend to give in to all powerful / close Civs and am probably way too casual regarding who I trade with).
5. Espionage?

Be grateful for any additional commentary.

Gunner.

Hi gunner,

the idea after CS, is to trade for mettalurgy and compass so you can bulb paper , edu and lib... Basically you don't want to trade away education before you get liberalism. It can be wise to trade for stuff like machinery, music once your bulbs are done to open up more tech choices from lib (of course you can also trade or research bigger stuff if the situation allows).
Without marble and nearby warmongers, I find pacifism a good alternative to the NE...
About relations: imo the key is to know the AIs you are dealing with: who will attack at pleased? who is a nice trader, who cares about religion, what are their favorite civics... also one thing to remember at high levels is that you can beg at pleased without diplo penalty. As the AI do that all the time, don't hesitate to beg archery, small religious techs, money... sometimes even happy resources!

Small input I know, but I have still a lot to learn to be competent at this level...

Cheers

Dirk1302 · Dec 16, 2008

@Gunner Jones

1.
I try to build NE before lib, easy with marble, not always possible without as there are other things to do as well.

2.
This is very important but there are no hard rules. I often research a few turns into techs so i can trade on 1 tech for 1 basis. I always try to look ahead if i can get techs other ais don't have so i can trade to a third party next round.

3.
I try to plan it this way, it's not always possible. some civic switches are so important, to buro pacifism for instance, that i make them asap.

4.
I hate giving away big techs. There really must be a great risk attacehd to refusing to do so. If someone like Pacal asks i laugh long and loud.

5.
In this game i set all ep to Pacal. I could see exactly what he was doing so i could plan all my research accordingly. The only techs i fully researched manually after CS iirc were paper/gunpowder and economics. Did some part research and a lot of bulbing(philo/edu/lib)/trading

@RRRaskolnikov, asking for archery is not so great, getting it this way counts toward wfyabta. I always forget to ask for gold but i do beg for the free resource occasionally.

RRRaskolnikov · Dec 16, 2008

Dirk1302 said:
@RRRaskolnikov, asking for archery is not so great, getting it this way counts toward wfyabta. I always forget to ask for gold but i do beg for the free resource occasionally.

Tx Dirk! I didn't know that... I guess the money and resources will be enough then.

silverbullet · Dec 16, 2008

Gunner, some more tips:

1) Before you start a tech, make sure you have enough gold to get it at 100% research (run 100% gold for a few turns if needed). This ensures that you don't waste beakers into techs that the AI is already researching.

2) When trading with the the AI, always select the tech you want from them and the techs you will give, and then press "what would make this deal work". This is how you get the best offer. If you press "what do you want for this?" or "what will you give me for this" you will get ridiculous offers.

3) Whenever possible trade with AIs for cash. Meaning, you give an expensive tech for a cheaper tech+cash, or you give a cheap tech for cash only. If you are familiar with WFYABTA mechanics you know that you should not trade for too many cheap techs.
Cash can be converted to beakers in a very good ratio in the early game (academy, library, monastery, bureacracy), so it can help keep 100% reseach for most of the early game.

4) Protective+Stone=wall overflow exploit. If you build walls until the last turn, then whip them, and chop a few forests in the same turn you get something like 300~400 hammers in the queue. That will give you walls and a nice cash overflow of 200~300 gold.

5) Try to get 2 or 3 techs for every tech you research (this is probably the most important tip). This is done by very careful trading - examine the options you have to trade, but also the options the AI have to trade and their relations.
For example, in this game Suleiman and Pacal are friendly (shared religion and favourite civic), meaning they will trade everything with each other. You need to avoid situations that they trade for a tech you gave them. So if I give something to Pacal, I first make sure that there is nothing he can get from Suleiman and vice versa. Alternatively, if I can trade with both of them on the same turn it's ideal - it doesn't always happen since they will not always have something useful to trade.
Similarly, in my game Saladin traded with me and with Suleiman but not with Pacal, so I knew it was safe to give him techs that Pacal didn't have (but Suleiman did).

6) Friendly AIs are very important to avoid WFYABTA, but that doesn't mean you have to gift them education 1 turn after bulbing it, friendship has its limits.

Dirk1302 · Dec 16, 2008

^This wall trick is very neat. I knew about it but didn't use it, also since i was fairly busy building other things and didn't have too much cash problems. So it can be used now in my save as i don't have single wall atm. I don't think it's an exploit btw, just one of the advantages of the protective trait.

I generally agree on 1. Between 500 BC and 500 AD the ais often get huge amounts of gold since they miss out on wonders. So i often set the slider as high as i can since 100% gold maybe wasteful if there's a bag of gold just around the corner.

obsolete · Dec 16, 2008

On the one hand, I sort of do consider the wall trick an exploit because I know firaxis didnt' quite intend it to be taken advantage of that way.

HOWEVER.

The trait is still laughed at by most people, so I do not see something WRONG in giving it a little extra (boost) to add some life into it. After all, consider that trait to ummmm Spiritual. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I never bother doing it anyhow though so it really doesn't matter. On the other hand, I'll take advantage of building wealth through wonders all the time.

BTW, I think your save Dirk is the best one, though a few things I still don't like in it.

silverbullet · Dec 16, 2008

Dirk: don't research rifling if you want to use the walls trick. For maximum effect (very hard to micro-manage), you need forge, org. religion, build walls until 1 hammer is left, and take it off queue, build something else until 1 turn left and whip it, then complete the wall by whipping it, while chopping 3 forests.

If Firaxis decides to "fix" this bug later I hope they will do something to compensate for the trait. Even as it is this exploit is pretty situational and probably isn't worth it without stone.

carl corey · Dec 16, 2008

There's more than the protective wall thing; IIRC an example Dresden gave was building Chariots in the HE city which can also give insane amounts of money, much more than you could get by directly producing gold. Hence he considered it a bug and it has been corrected in the unofficial patch, version 0.21.

Dirk1302 · Dec 16, 2008

^All present and accounted for except the forests. I like the way you played ABigCivFan's save btw, looks very solid all around.

@Obsolete, i sometimes like protective on deity, not in this game however. What do you not like in my save? Personally i think i should have had Oxford by now, i'm busy preparing but there was just too much else to build. Especially in the border cities i gave priority to synagogues and hermitage, otherwise i probably would have finished it by now. I also don't like everyone being in merc but i'm not the only suffering from this and it can hardly be helped.Also ais are a bit more advanced in my game and i'm afraid i have myself to blame for this :lol:

.

obsolete · Dec 16, 2008

What I didnt' like was... you have too many settlers right now... and too much time & hammers was wasted on cottages. Also I don't like your civics, (but now your got tied to them cause of the cottages). And I really don't like the city builds.

6 cities is enough!

Now, that I have butchered your save up. Let me re-iterate that I still think it's the best (I guess this means I insulted everyone else too?).

Regardless, I think it's impossible to lose this game at this point.

silverbullet · Dec 16, 2008

Olodune:

Spoiler :

Olodune · Dec 16, 2008

Thanks for the feedback silverbullet

Spoiler :

I have never seen an artillery beeline, but this definitely seems promising.

Why won't you build 100% cash until oxford is finished?
I would have even delayed printing press until after oxford because you don't need it that much yet - not that many villages on the map.

You can afford to delay research for 10 turns or so to get a much faster deficit research later. Right now you have 322 bpt for -89 gold, you could probably get something like 420bpt for the same amount after oxford.

-> I saw Pacal getting PP, and realized I could get it on the same turn, trading it for gunpowder + ?? before he spread it around. Suleiman just got Rep Parts, I was hoping to trade it for Nat. Building a gold reserve would have been a better plan. :goodjob:

1)if you chose to cottage spam the capital, I think you should have built a helper city 3S of it to work it's cottages. The capital should not work a 2f/1c tile. It can work mines instead to get observatory and oxford faster, while the junk city is there to grow it's cottages.

-> Agreed. A junk city was probably the way to go. Stealing the corn for Lagash may have hurt more than an extra GSci will help (in the longish run). Uruk will switch to max. production in 2-turns for Oxford.

2) Why are there farms on the riverside plains in Lagash? I would expect a workshop and after RP maybe a watermill. A plain farm is just a waste of a tile (and it's good to see that you are not working these farms).

->

Yeah ... I built one farm thinking I needed to irrigate the rice. No excuse at all for the other. There are two more grass tiles that need farms to the south -- I'll put workshops on those plains tiles as the population grows. An interesting side effect of early SciMeth is that Communism is right around the corner -> I think it makes sense to research it while building troops. State Property would enable easy workshop spam -- as well as make Darius/Joao juicy (and relatively backward) targets for the Artillery war.

Thanks again.

ABigCivFan · Dec 16, 2008

@Olodune:

Artillary sounds very interesting. Given the current GPP level, how many turns do you estimate it will take to get it?

Artillary can not be flanked for a very long time, it is like a wonder-weapon if you can pull this off. But in this particular game, I do expect you will face AI infantry (especially Sulei) when you get it. But CR2 artillary against infantry should still be good.

Only probelms I see:

1. when you dont get GS as planned
2. our raw beaker count is still low, even if you double bulb these expensive techs you still need to research the rest
3. Sci. method obsoletes GL/Parthenon and greatly reduces your GPP

My plan was to go for Pacal for Iron and use Cannons/Grenadiars, which is easier to achieve. CR2 cannons against Muskets/knights is also a slaughter but the downside is cannons can be flanked by Curies/Cavs.

Deity cookbook I: Gilgamesh from Sumeria

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