[GS] Deity Early Religion

[philip101]

I have a few questions about rushing for an early religion on deity, and also just looking for general advice..

For background I’m a relatively consistent deity player (standard, continents, no other changes) going for science either peacefully or through early war > conquer one civ > switch to science. I also have a few culture victories through early war > conquer one civ / religion > switch to culture.

I’ve seen others suggest early religion rush for CV, but any time I try it I find it puts me so far behind that I’m curious how others make it work:

• What’s the best way to think about the early tech tree? Is Astrology rush needed?
• How do you make early war viable with religion rush if you don’t have room to expand comfortably?
• Oftentimes I just feel really behind and I find myself trying to do a bit of everything to catch up (Campus, horses, golden age). Any general tips on how to prioritize after Holy Site would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[enKage]

"Oftentimes I just feel really behind and I find myself trying to do a bit of everything to catch up (Campus, horses, golden age). Any general tips on how to prioritize after Holy Site would be very helpful."
Go for classical dark age. It has nice dark age cards for religious play (fe. +75% science in holy sites cities, cheap inquisition) and - most important - allows heroic age in medieval, when you already can benefit more from acumulated faith and get easy science and culture from other dedications

 

[hr_oskar]

I don't think there's a need to rush religion, in the sense that there's no need to be first or second to found. Founding a religion isn't hard and I think it's very much worth doing for one simple reason: Choral Music. The AI will not pick that for either the first or second religion (I don't remember what they pick 3rd or later).

The beauty of Choral Music is that it allows you to produce both faith and culture with one district which also happens to have nice cheap buildings. To me that makes sense for all strategies and all victory conditions, so I generally do found a religion. It's nice for a CV because you want all the culture you can get and for other victory types it allows you to build fewer theatre squares. I also don't think it hurts your early war efforts too much because all warmongering still needs to be supported by a decent economy, science and culture, and in addition you can get good combat bonuses out of your religion (Defender of the Faith and Crusade).

 

[DrCron]

• How do you make early war viable with religion rush if you don’t have room to expand comfortably?

In my experience, on Deity you simply don´t. You either get a religion or play an early rush. It´s very unlikely you can do both.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

In my experience, on Deity you simply don´t. You either get a religion or play an early rush. It´s very unlikely you can do both.

Unless you capture a holy site You could also, in theory, just use a Golden Age to get a religion while building for an early rush. Not a good choice imho, but it is possible.

I don't think there's a need to rush religion, in the sense that there's no need to be first or second to found. Founding a religion isn't hard and I think it's very much worth doing for one simple reason: Choral Music. The AI will not pick that for either the first or second religion (I don't remember what they pick 3rd or later).

The beauty of Choral Music is that it allows you to produce both faith and culture with one district which also happens to have nice cheap buildings. To me that makes sense for all strategies and all victory conditions, so I generally do found a religion. It's nice for a CV because you want all the culture you can get and for other victory types it allows you to build fewer theatre squares. I also don't think it hurts your early war efforts too much because all warmongering still needs to be supported by a decent economy, science and culture, and in addition you can get good combat bonuses out of your religion (Defender of the Faith and Crusade).

I got a religion on T128 in a Deity game yesterday. Not even kidding.

Also, Choral Music is almost always the best, I have to agree there. Production bonus is pretty good, too, but Choral is better earlier. Makes Shrines and Temples such efficient builds.

 

[The Highwayman]

If I get a religion on Deity I'm not warring early; it's that simple. If I don't have room to expand, I forego the religion and make room. Religion can be worth it for science and culture games since it fuels expansion and infrastructure development via Monumentality. Additionally Choral Music is a 2 for 1 bonus so the holy site pays for itself in that regard. I don't feel like I'm behind once that kicks in.

After the early holy site in my first two-three cities, it's business as usual. Expand, expand, expand, plan the districts, fortify my defenses if I'm not making friends. I harvest everything to catch up on growth so I have the extra district slots. Beelining Theology isn't a bad idea to get temples online and start an inquisition to defend the religion. It's worth some era score too.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I do not think Religion really fuels monumentality -- How often does your religion give you a faith boost per se? Most of the time you're buffing culture, production, gold or science with your religion. Very rarely do I get any belief that increases faith. Building Holy Sites, Shrines and Temples is what fuels monumentality, religion isn't really needed imo. I think we need to distinguish between rushing a religion and getting faith infrastructure. I almost never do the former and almost always do the latter if there is room.

Seen a lot of people beeline Theology lately, I think it might be worth with Choral Music. Though personally I still always prioritize my governments over everything, I might have to adapt somewhat. I am getting too stale in my ways - Classical Republic, Merchant, Democracy, Synthetic Technocracy gets really boring after some time.

 

[The Highwayman]

I do not think Religion really fuels monumentality -- How often does your religion give you a faith boost per se? Most of the time you're buffing culture, production, gold or science with your religion. Very rarely do I get any belief that increases faith. Building Holy Sites, Shrines and Temples is what fuels monumentality, religion isn't really needed imo. I think we need to distinguish between rushing a religion and getting faith infrastructure. I almost never do the former and almost always do the latter if there is room.

You're absolutely correct - I should have been more specific. The religion supplements the culture in the early game while the requisite early holy sites provide additional faith gen for Monumentality. Aside from that, religion isn't needed and decent faith gen can be had without it, detailed in our other threads.

 

[Monsterzuma]

You're absolutely correct - I should have been more specific. The religion supplements the culture in the early game while the requisite early holy sites provide additional faith gen for Monumentality. Aside from that, religion isn't needed and decent faith gen can be had without it, detailed in our other threads.

I see Monumentality and The Grand Masters' Chapel as things you can use to deploy faith when you're not using it for religion's conventional builds i.e. missionaries and apostles. In that sense they are strategically almost opposites.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

It has been said before but no harm in saying it again.
Faith Generation is Valuable.
Religion not so much.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

what other uses are there for faith though? I very rarely get good GP purchases with faith. do you guys get Jesuit Education (buy campus buildings with faith) ever? personally even when I do get a religion I rarely even enhance it..

often times I will end a science victory sitting on 5000+ faith while the next GS costs like 15,000 or smth stupid..

my personal goal for the next few games is to always have Moksha upgraded to buy spaceports with faith. seems like a good use. especially since I am planning on having two spaceport chop cities now instead of one (3 spaceport cities total).

 

[The Highwayman]

I never take Jesuit - the faith gets chewed up by rushing civilians. Culture from Choral Music seems so much better. I'll occasionally snipe a GP, but Moksha is the best use of late game faith in a science race, as it's essentially 2 spaceports for the price of one. His early promos are pretty worthless, but that's the cost of doing business.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I never take Jesuit - the faith gets chewed up by rushing civilians. Culture from Choral Music seems so much better.

Jesuit is something you get as an additional belief when you do not have monumentality going imo. But even in that scenario it's pretty meh. It was tip-top in Civ 5 though so I think one could make it work in 6.

Moksha is the best use of late game faith in a science race, as it's essentially 2 spaceports for the price of one. His early promos are pretty worthless, but that's the cost of doing business.

well not exactly since 1 faith is harder to come by than 1 gold, but yeah I completely agree with you. buying SP with faith is very, very efficient, because gold can better be used on other ressources. what about the promo that gives faith every time you complete a building, is that any good?

 

[The Highwayman]

well not exactly since 1 faith is harder to come by than 1 gold, but yeah I completely agree with you. buying SP with faith is very, very efficient, because gold can better be used on other ressources. what about the promo that gives faith every time you complete a building, is that any good?

On paper I think you're right, but I think the results can vary depending on the Civ/map in real world time. There are times I'm more gold starved than others, i.e. lack of plantations/gold resources, most civs are inexplicably on the same continent which reducing trade deals, etc.. If I'm using a faith powerhouse, such as Arabia, 1 faith can feel as easy as 1 gold. But yeah, you can't trade for faith, nor can you get the massive boost from Big Ben. Ideally you're swimming in both to your point, chain buying infrastructure while leveraging the faith for other things.

When space port purchasing with Moksha, I've never invested in his promotions early enough to make the early promotions impactful. Magnus has a tendency to take priority on tour, while Pingala and Liang are usually on lock down once their respective cities have been harvested. I can see value from the faith from buildings promo, but it means getting it early and working around Magnus.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

True, I usually play huge or standard maps and so always have trading partners. But if you played standard/small and more ocean type maps you would probably have a stronger faith economy than a cash economy until much later. Also, as you say, sometimes you just spawn without many luxes/strategics/gold tiles. I shouldn't assume too much based on my own playstyle

 

[Monsterzuma]

what other uses are there for faith though? I very rarely get good GP purchases with faith. do you guys get Jesuit Education (buy campus buildings with faith) ever? personally even when I do get a religion I rarely even enhance it..

often times I will end a science victory sitting on 5000+ faith while the next GS costs like 15,000 or smth stupid..

my personal goal for the next few games is to always have Moksha upgraded to buy spaceports with faith. seems like a good use. especially since I am planning on having two spaceport chop cities now instead of one (3 spaceport cities total).

My favorite use of Faith is to concentrate the military production power of a massive empire into one vital spot (such as across continents) using the Grand Master's Chappel.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

nice, that's pretty creative. I haven't really used faith for military, but it makes so much sense. pillage faith with the policy card, buy a unit the same turn! brilliant

 

[Bangau]

Pushing for faith and early warring are not likely to happen at the same time, but I've done it a few times. If you can rush out your holy site and a shrine, you're often on your way to a religion. You can switch to military at that time and just wait for your religion to come to you. Before your HS you will probably have build a few units already, you build some more and maybe you can even levy a CS army. That's enough to go to early war and conquer a few AI cities before they get walls up. I happen to be playing a Philip of Spain game where I (of course) got a religion and Indonesia declared war around turn 40/50ish. Not super early, but still quite early. I build a few archers and could levy a few CS units and am crushing them. Makes for an interesting game focusing on conquest of your opponents that have different religions, just as Spain was intended. Once I get the conquistadors, I'll find some more heretics to 'turn'.