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Deity OCC Science Victory - G&K Strategy and Tips

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sadato, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    The only thing I can come up with regarding my finish time is that I did naturally create a few Great People other than GS, which could have slowed my progress a bit with respect to GS. I naturally created 3 GA's and 2 GE's over the course of the game, plus got a free GE from Pisa and a free GP from HS. I did not build the Louvre since I did not want to increase my GP cost with those 2 free GA's. However, I still ended up with 7 planted academies and I probably used 7-8 GS post-research labs to help speed up research (a couple of those were bought with faith), so I thought that was pretty good overall. I'm not sure how much better you could do with Korea or Babylon, but 80 turns is a lot to shave off. Otherwise, the conditions were darn near perfect in my game (river and mountain start, lots of production and growth, obtained all of the needed wonders, including the GL which gave me an early GS to plant, peaceful most of the game except for an early war that was easily dispatched, decent number of DoF's with AI civs resulting in good number of RA's, lots of CS allies all game, etc.).

    At the end I had 30 population, over 1000 beakers/turn, almost 200 hammers/turn and was still getting new policies at a rate of every 10 turns or less. My faith was a bit low maybe (I think it was around 65/turn), so I wasn't able to buy GS that often as they were up to 2500 faith. I'm not sure how much better I can do even with Korea or Babylon.
     
  2. SlithyTove

    SlithyTove Chieftain

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    Fantastic guide, thanks for posting.
     
  3. Ricardo_706

    Ricardo_706 Chieftain

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    Went Inca/Pangea/Standard/King.

    I'm normally fighting happiness in my Whoever/Continents/Huge/King games and was hesitatant about selling all my luxuries. I threw caution to the wind and followed as best I could.

    I crushed the game. Happiness was absolutely NEVER and issue. I was amazed.
    Didn't win, though. I got sidetracked wth something at work so just retired around T220. My style of play is not very good so yea, T220 is within 5 turns of where I hit Apollo Program.

    I missed a few key milestones due to just skimming the strategy. I plan to give it another shot - or 5 ;).
     
  4. Artingel78

    Artingel78 Elephant Commander

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    This should be moved to War-Academy.
    Thanks a lot, and that is some pretty nice work in there.
     
  5. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

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    Umm, why do you short sell your Lux/Strategics? Its 240 per Lux on Standard and 45 per Strategic.
     
  6. ShadowoftheDark

    ShadowoftheDark Chieftain

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    I tried this stat and at the End game a Civ or two always always gets the Apollo program before me.

    Haven't even finished researching it even. I even used Korea and they still got it before me. I followed his guide to the tee though. Can anyone share their experiences with his strategy?

    Thanks
     
  7. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Depends on how far from finishing Rocketry you are. I wouldn't worry about AI's Apollo. On deity AI builds it early, but it takes a lot longer than to human to finish all parts. Use GS, Hubble, spaceship factories etc. If you're researching Rocketry already, your chances are solid.
     
  8. Louis8k8

    Louis8k8 Chieftain

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    I second the above statement on Apollo. They finish it early. The AI does a lot of nosediving for tech. I had an Immortal game that I lost by 3 turns (Denmark had 4/5 pieces, i had 4/5 pieces. I was 3 turns away from completing when he finished his final piece).

    Denmark finished Apollo when I was not even in Modern Era (But I was wayyyy ahead in score and total tech %). He was the the furthest nation from me and surrounded by mountains and civs that I was at war with so fighting him to delay him was very hard. But he stalled a really long time before he built any parts.

    I unlocked Satellite 1 turn before my second space part finished. That made me lose the game because Denmark got Hubble half a turn I did (I say half a turn because our turns don't happen simultaneously, and he finished after I click 'next turn' with 1 turn left). So in my second try, I cancelled my space part in my capital to research hubble and finished it half a turn before Denmark.
     
  9. dthompson32

    dthompson32 Warlord

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    One question, is the advice to keep all the research specialists in play for 6 turns after Research Labs still hold true? If that is correct, then I've been popping all my Great Scientists too early.
     
  10. Dreadnough

    Dreadnough Chieftain

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    Thanks for the guide, it is really good and helped me to win my first game on deity without to much trouble.

    I played Babylon and had a quite nice start. Mountains at the north and sea to the west made it basically impossible for Isabella to apply any pressure, that couldn't dealt with by my village alone. Bismark couldn't cross the river at my south. So only Darius was a threat. Therefore it wasn't even a problem to defend against all three of them at the same time.

    Eventually I finished at turn 275. Pacal had all but one part completet for like 15 turns, so I was pretty nervous if I could manage it. Since I had no gold I couldn't buy the spaceship factory and needed 7 turns to finish it. If I didn't mess up with my tech I could also had finished another two-three turns earlier.

    Still I have some questions:

    1. Would you mind to edit your thread and remove all the median stuff, since it doesn't apply in G&K anymore? It was a little bit confusing for such a beginner as me.

    2. How do you deal with airforces? When Darius attacked me the second time he had one Greatwarbomber, which tickled a bit. But I stoped soon laughing as he used 10 air units a turn a little bit later, killing a unit a turn. I had to go back for some turns and get two SAM, which put an end to this threat. Still I didn't read anything about this in your guide.

    3. I didn't have enough gold during the last third of the game. At least I was able to get all the research agreements I needed and I even allied a CS once. But apart from the first three archer and a pikeman I never had gold to buy units, nor I could buy any buildings. I really would had liked to build some of the lategame buildings like a hospital, a power plant or the spaceship factory, just to improve my hammers/time. Do you have any suggestion how to get more gold?

    I had four luxurys which I sold the whole time, but I sold them to my friends, since I don't like the idea wo make a deal with someone, who will attack you soon anyway. Only had some horses and iron, used my oil to trade for aluminium.

    4. Which tech to priorize, Satellites or Robotics? Does this change if Hubble is already build by someone else (Pacal got it, before I even had the tech)? Does this change if you do not have a GE ready?

    Still thanks for your great work here.
     

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  11. SlithyTove

    SlithyTove Chieftain

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    Had a few starts where I ended up getting sandwiched between too many civs and always ended up overrun sooner or later. I think I am not using my great generals properly yet. (does the enemy AI ever pillage citadesl?)

    Last run had a nice little corner of the map and ended up doing very well. Harun won a diplo vic 2 turns before my ship launch (I could have prevented with the Ally-DoW method if I was paying attention).

    Ironically, getting the Hubble Space Telescope actually cost me the game. I didn't need it at is turns out and if I had been building ship parts at that time instead I would have won handily.

    So many RAs popped right at the end that I think I may have bugged the game's research engine. The last 9 techs that I researched were all 1 turn researches, and the first 9 or so future techs were 1 turn as well (plus a couple more future techs from finishing Rationalism). Then a future tech came in that stated 185 turns to research and that i had -57000 beakers researched on it so far.

    I've been getting better with each run-through, seems like a very viable strat.
     
  12. jeespoks

    jeespoks Warlord

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    Seems like you did everything right but somehow and somewhere you lost some turns. Getting GL should speed up the process quite nicely.

    Did you bulb Philosophy with GL and start building NC immediately? What turn did you get the other Specialist Science buildings?

    I'm trying similiar to this at the moment, but went two cities instead because there was a decent location near capital for second city. The excess happiness from SPs and Natural Wonders seem to be enough to support a 2nd city without having to keep most luxuries. I feel that way it's also easier to delay 7th SP until Astronomy is researsched (and not having to bulb it with Oxford) and avoid the Golden Age until late game.

    NC was build around T70, Uni in capital T110ish, Observatory will be ready there T125. I've a GE ready for PT and suspect to get it around T150. The cap has pop 18 at T120 and 2nd city has pop 9 or 10. I wonder if I'm in pace with this OCC approach and two cities might get you a win faster with this strategy?

    I didn't follow blindly this guide though. Build order in cap was scout, worker, granary and got Monument from Legalism. Bought the settler and library on 2nd city.
     
  13. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Sadato, I have a question. How many RA's you usually sign in total?
    It seems I'm in the same boat with RedRover. Got one with Ethiopia on 271, but seriously can't see how to shave many turns off. My starting location wasn't perfect, though it was solid enough. Was running 3-4 RA's most of the time, got almost 150 gpt from Tithe. Managed to grab many wonders: HS, Great Mosque, PT and Hubble. Missed on SH, and Pisa before I even started to invest hammers into them, so didn't really miss much.
    I also rush bough a university, since I had cash, so got it relatively early. Any ideas? Is HS worth it at all?

    Now I'm having another go with Theodora, looks ok, got religion once again and this time I'll try to abuse Interfaith Dialogue, so maybe research will be faster. I'm still skeptical about sub 250.
     
  14. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    In my experience you deal with it by teching fast so you are never at a mercy of enemy air force. It's a game breaker at deity for me, if I get caught Like that I tend to lose my super promoted range units. If you get flight about same time even one fighter or two will make a difference.
     
  15. Sadato

    Sadato Warlord

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    Back from Holidays.

    I'll answer your questions and I will post some findings. I will also edit the opening post.

    - Redrover:
    Avoid at all costs generation of any GP other than a GS. You should only allow a GE to cath Pisa, PT. Usually at the last turns when I fill all the specialists slots I time the last Scientist with an Artist, an Engineer and a Merchant.

    - S.K.Ren:
    I do sell luxuries and strategics for 240 and 45, but If I have an upset neighbour I will sell him for 209 and 39 or even less. That way If they declare war on me I can sell the resources again to buy some archers and If they don't attack everything is fine.

    - DThompshon32:
    Plant all your scientists. I only burn them if: I have already a lab and 6 turns with all the specialists slots filled have passed (maximum science) and the next round of RAs won't kick in a near future (It will boost your RA output).

    - Dreadnough:
    I rarely had issues with Air Force. Only when I had a good military (late game) and I was at war with a neighbourgh and I pushed him back to his borders. I guess usually my units are out of range of air units. When that happened I just bought an anti air unit and planes stopped coming.
    About the gold issue in my games I only use gold to: Buy some archers and upgrade them later, buy some important tiles, sign RAs, buy 1 coal to build the factory, buy aluminium, buy a solar plant or 1 uranium plus a nuclear plant (I'm building spaceship parts at this point and I can't stop to biuld the plant). Selling all luxuries, building a Market, National Treasury and a Bank and working riverside tiles or luxury ones if you don't have a river gives me like 40+ gpt with is enough for my needs. If you build the happiness building you'll get 2-3 Golden Ages along your game that will give you a good amount of gold aswell. Remember that in the last turns you can throw away your GPT for an instant huge amount of gold and you can sell your university, lab, opera house, etc. If you want more gold you can build the Oracle after the NC to get Commerce opener for free.
    I prioritize Satellites, I've never been beaten to Hubble and I hardbuild it usually (normally 10 turns). I've you can't build it, sure robotics first is a must.

    - Jeespoks:
    Playing Deity you can't get the GL. It is mostly build turns 25-30. At lower difficulties a GL->Philo bulb would be great ofc.

    - The Pilgrim:
    I end signing 5 RAs, sometimes even more. I achive this with an active use of the spies. I send all of them to different Civs changing the Civs often so I can get attack plans to share the info and get new friends constantly. It works wonders. I don't care stealing techs becase I beeline so much that normally I can only steal cheap and useless techs from the low part of the tree like gunpowder or steel and It can upset Civs that could be friends in a future. I've managed to make friends with mad neighbouring Civs like Attila or Monty that attacked me 2 or 3 times along the game just by pure info sharing of other Civs attack plans.

    Some general findings:
    - Unless you are Ethiopia, Celts or Maya, you don't need religion and SH is a waste, period. I guess I was lucky before because in the last games AIs build it around T27-30 and a couple times I was unable to found a religion even with SH. I find much better to open in a full grow mode with Scout, Monument, Granary, Library, Water Mill, NC focusing on improving farms and growing and only focusing production to build NC. It also allows to build a warrior or two while waiting for the NC that are helpful.

    - I had much success with an alternate opening with Artemis. Archery-Mining first, Scout, Monument, grow to size 3, and focus production to complete Artemis. Usually around turn 30-40 depending on the chopping. AIs rarely make it that fast and it pays off in the long run. If you like to gamble a lot you can continue to Math and HG (if on desert even if you fail on HG you can beeline to Petra while building archers). If you achieve it (I guess you have like a 20% rate of succeding, maybe more with Egypt)) you'll have a really pleasant game.

    - The best Civ hands down to OCC science are the Incas. Pachacu's Mountain bias allows turn 0-1 city founding and luxuries in place of your city radius (with other civs if you move your settler to found near a Mountain you may find yourself with 0-1 luxuries). In addition, terrace farms are great and defending with hill movement and free roads around your city is godly.

    - I found that the techpath without thinking about the median is similar because your also follow this path: NC, Public Administration, Education, Oxford Astronomy, Steelworking, Machinery, Pisa, PT, School, Electricity, Industrialization --> Lab --> Rocketry (Apollo) -> Sattelites (Hubble).

    - Now that you don't care about the median, the turn I discover Education I sign 3-5 RAs the same turn so when they kick I can jump from Printing Press to PT or even School.
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    And how many waves? 3? I do think I stopped signing RA's too early. Got ~10 in total. In vanilla I typically had 14-15 for early 2XX finish and not OCC. I'm also not sure I optimize tech stealing. In Ethiopia game I was the tech leader by turn 150. Any tips on that? I'll try to skip on HS this time and get GS out early. What turn you're expecting to build public school and research lab?
    And one more question. You say you time GA+GE with the last GS. Do you pop them at the same turn? I've read somewhere you can't do this anymore. Maybe a false rumor though. But provided last GS costs 700-800 gpp is it even possible? Are you running artists and engineers all the time?

    Many thanks! :) This thread is extremely useful for understanding how the new tech tree is supposed to be cleaned and helps a lot to benchmark one's progress. :)
     
  17. Sadato

    Sadato Warlord

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    Yes, 3 waves are usually enough, around turns 120-150-180, (you should have PT and scientific revolution for the 2ond wave) although due to not having money or friends some will open later, I would sign until T190, later ones depend on your progress, I you won't complete the tree until T230 sure make more until T200 it usually it depends on your timing with the completion of Rationalism to get Nano and Particles.

    About the popping of the GPs if I'm going to get a GS near getting Satellites I fill all the slots and time it to get a GE for Hubble, a GA for a Golden Age and a Merchant to some money. The next GS would be too late to be useful so it doesn't matter to not getting more at that time. It requires some micromanagement but I fill all slots possible without popping any other GP than GS so they all have so many points that that multiple last popping is doable.
     
  18. Patriotic_Fool

    Patriotic_Fool The Mitt ©

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    really good.. sadato, is there any way you can make a "Let's play" of you doing this with a civ? I've been following your guide but so far 300+ turns is my best. Also, what techs do I go for after getting public schools? Best I've gotten is public school at turn 160

    Also bumping because this demands more attention! :D
     
  19. Attaturk

    Attaturk Warlord

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    Sadato:

    Can you post a starting save on which you got 220/230 with Babylon or Korea?
    I am pulling my hair out and cannot get it that fast. I am doing more of 250+ with occ Babylon.

    With 3-4 cities, I can do sub 220, but with one having troubles getting there
     
  20. Patriotic_Fool

    Patriotic_Fool The Mitt ©

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    damnit I've gotten 320, 300, but not near 250 :|

    you using an observatory?
     

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