Deity of Random - Try 1

The new roster and updated timeline:

Time for discussing and making new plans (because quite a lot has happened and Flo will be back from holiday soon) will be until this wednesday, then we resume our 3-days chedule:

Rusten (up - 18.-20.06)
Flo (next 21.-23.06)
Obsolete (welcome in the team - more next 24.- 26.06)
CellKu (waiting)
Snaaty (more waiting)
 
Hi Team, back from holiday. Game turned really great while I was away, maybe I should more often go on holiday :lol:
Will take a closer look at the save tonight and post my ideas...

Obsolete, welcome to the team :goodjob:
 
Ok, I'm back in business as well.
Snaaty said:
Some questions are:

- Whome to invade next
- What to trade for
- Vassalize or eliminate Hanni (we could leave him one of the cities on our island, IF he gives us Consti for exemple... ...but I´m not sure about that, because we might end up needing ALL good cities in the end and I dont know if Consti is worth it)
- Where to move our gazillon of troops (we have 17 ships, 36 rifles and 11 cannons now, + 2 samurai waiting to be upgraded)
- Civics and politics
- Research
- Sushi and GM
Who to invade -> imo Egypt as Ramesses has neither chemistry for grens nor replaceable parts for rifling. His gold will be yummy too.
Hannibal -> I don't think we should accept his capitulation as that would screw up diplomacy for us. IMO we should either destroy him completely or take his main cities and then simply sign peace for some techs leaving him with the small southern one.
Civics -> guess we'll be preparing for free market if we'll aim for sushi. If so courthouses must be given a high priority as maintenance will be huge.
Research -> Medicine for Sushi?
Where to move our gazillon of troops (we have 17 ships, 36 rifles and 11 cannons now, + 2 samurai waiting to be upgraded) -> Egypt IMO.
Sushi and GM -> Could adopt CS+X and mass merchants in Kyoto after the current GP spawns. Now that we have Biology we should be able to assign a lot of merchant specialists.
Trade for -> Pericles is willing to make a deal [Biology+460 gold and we get Steam Power] -- seems quite nice.
 
1.) I agree with Rusten that we should invade Ramses next. Since this will be the region where our other opponents are as well, we should move the main part of our army there.
2.) Concerning Han we should aim at taking all his (few) cities on his main continent and after that sign peace for at least one valuable tech, best would be constitution if we aim for sushi. At that point Han should have only one or so city left. If he doesn't vassalize to anybody else during the following turns we could take him out after our peace deal expires.
3.) Since we have quite a number of units now, I think we should focus on improving our infrastructure where necessary (I agree with Rusten on courthouses, and we should get harbors in all cities, IIRC there is still a number of cities that doesn't have one).
4.) Another priority should be to (finally ;-) ) spread the religions we have.
5.) Rusten's idea about the trade with Pericles sounds nice!
 
Well, after having a quick look at the save again, here comes my input:

1. I would invade Charly first, because of 4 reasons
a) He is weak
b) Our army is nearby on two sides
c) We get the whole coni and therefore the max. boni from SoL
d) We can eliminate him completely without considering col. maintainance for later (we will move the palace there anyways)
e) but most important: He might reach inf soon, so better to strike now (with Egypt we have time)...

I dont think Charly will have any chance against our army, even with tech-parity... ...but if the team decides to go for Egypt instead, well I can live with that also:lol:

2. After thinking about it, I would eliminate Hanni completely, because our endgame civis will very likely be Rep + Slavery + FreeM (running heaps of specialists thanks to Suhi, producing buildings to hire them mainly with the whip... ...and SOME more units) and every dead civ cant bother us with the emancip :mad:... ...besides that, the city we would leave to Hanni simply is to good for that:p

3. We still need to build some more cannons, but harbours, custom houses and courthouses should be mixed in also (but please dont swing production completely to infra... ...we will need the units, mainly the cannons)

4. Speading religion sounds great. Carthago is a good place to do so. We can even spread both relis there, because we will soon have both holy buildings (where do we build or new palace btw? My vote goes for Achen, so this would be another point for invading Charly next:p)

5. Yes, the trade mentioned is great

6. Researching Medicine sounds fine. We can then also use Medicine to get us the missing techs for corps...

7. Getting a GM for Suhi... ...Growing Kioto a little more, then revolting to Caste + Pacif sounds like a plan to me, backed by hiring 10000 merchants (but we should really hurry here, because we want to be back in slavery + theo ASAP, because we dont produce much without the whip and pacif could be a "little" expensive in the long run...)

8. Still not decided about our 2 GGs... ...Superhealers, Superramborifles or settling... ...or a mixture:confused:

9. Something to reconsider: Once we have sushi, we should aim for settling and capturing ANY islands out there... ...with something like 20 free food and the whip we dont even need to work any tiles

10. Egypt has a quite big conti... ...and since eliminatin them would be obviously the better choise (no matter if we attack them or Charli first) we might want to reconsider our plans with the FP... ...Better living with the 3 cities on Bulls island and the distance-maint then having 6 (or maybe even 7) cities with colonial upkeep there... ...but I´m not really sure about it... ...or maybe eliminate Egypt and make a friendly colony there we can force to stay out of emancip??? Like that we still could build the FP on bulls island, which would really help coping with the distance-maint there...
 
Well, after having a quick look at the save again, here comes my input:

1. I would invade Charly first, because of 4 reasons
a) He is weak
b) Our army is nearby on two sides
c) We get the whole coni and therefore the max. boni from SoL
d) We can eliminate him completely without considering col. maintainance for later (we will move the palace there anyways)
e) but most important: He might reach inf soon, so better to strike now (with Egypt we have time)...

I dont think Charly will have any chance against our army, even with tech-parity... ...but if the team decides to go for Egypt instead, well I can live with that also:lol:

@ Snaaty
Charles has a Defpact with Zara, would you still attack him :eek: even if Zara will not attack we would definitely loose our friendly status with him...


2. After thinking about it, I would eliminate Hanni completely, because our endgame civis will very likely be Rep + Slavery + FreeM (running heaps of specialists thanks to Suhi, producing buildings to hire them mainly with the whip... ...and SOME more units) and every dead civ cant bother us with the emancip :mad:... ...besides that, the city we would leave to Hanni simply is to good for that:p

@ Snaaty
Is the emancipation penalty calculated for each civ adapting it?I always though it is calculated by the time the first civ chose it.

I would also completely eliminate Han. If our losses are too high and we do not have enough troops to finish him quickly, we can make peace for a tech and dow him later again (good old civ I style :king:).
The only leaders pleased with han is ramses and sb so we would only get the -1 from you dowed our friend from them, and we have spoiled relations with them anyway.


3. We still need to build some more cannons, but harbours, custom houses and courthouses should be mixed in also (but please dont swing production completely to infra... ...we will need the units, mainly the cannons)

Agree, we need more cannons

4. Speading religion sounds great. Carthago is a good place to do so. We can even spread both relis there, because we will soon have both holy buildings (where do we build or new palace btw? My vote goes for Achen, so this would be another point for invading Charly next:p)

Agree too, except for the Aachen part

5. Yes, the trade mentioned is great

If we do the trade we wont have enough gold to bribe Zara into peace with Han, which should IMO be a top priority.

6. Researching Medicine sounds fine. We can then also use Medicine to get us the missing techs for corps...

Medicine is fine. If we can trade for military tradition that might enable another trade with Pericles who is still missing it.


7. Getting a GM for Suhi... ...Growing Kioto a little more, then revolting to Caste + Pacif sounds like a plan to me, backed by hiring 10000 merchants (but we should really hurry here, because we want to be back in slavery + theo ASAP, because we dont produce much without the whip and pacif could be a "little" expensive in the long run...)

8. Still not decided about our 2 GGs... ...Superhealers, Superramborifles or settling... ...or a mixture:confused:

Would go for the mixture, one settling and one for a superhealer which enables the WP. The superrambo is not worth it IMO


9. Something to reconsider: Once we have sushi, we should aim for settling and capturing ANY islands out there... ...with something like 20 free food and the whip we dont even need to work any tiles

Agree here. Another thing why to do that would be that Domination victory is in reach. Pericles is first with a landmass of 18%, if we just let him and Zara survive they would make it to less than 36% (and some points for Nap). So we could also consider taking out some barb cities (there are two left in the south) and redow SB at the end. 42% Population will be easy with Sushi...

10. Egypt has a quite big conti... ...and since eliminatin them would be obviously the better choise (no matter if we attack them or Charli first) we might want to reconsider our plans with the FP... ...Better living with the 3 cities on Bulls island and the distance-maint then having 6 (or maybe even 7) cities with colonial upkeep there... ...but I´m not really sure about it... ...or maybe eliminate Egypt and make a friendly colony there we can force to stay out of emancip??? Like that we still could build the FP on bulls island, which would really help coping with the distance-maint there...
Because of the mentioned pot domination victory I would take out Ramses completely. btw he has two continents, another one with 3 cities

(Message was too short... without that sentence out of the quote box)
 
@ Flo:

The def pact between Zara and Charly ended, when one of them declared/entered the war against Hanni. I havent checked this explicitely now, but I´m rel. sure that there is no def. pact now... ...this would be another reason to strike for Charly now btw... ...his big brother is gone:goodjob:

...

Emancip penaltiy for each civ that adopts it (IF I remember right)

...

We are stomping Hanni... ...he will live max. 5 turns more:king:

...

Where would you put the palace if not in Achen?

...

Good point with Zara. Prio 1 should still be bribing Zara to peace with Hanni

...

Another good point is the dom. calcualtion. Sound pretty good that we might do without attacking the big ones, so no prisoners, kill everybody:D
 
@ Snaaty

Wasnt it that Han declared on Charles and then on Zara automatically too, due to the def pact?

However, I checked the save and they still have a def pact. My graphics chip is poor so I cannot tell from the colour of the lines in the relationship screen but they still have the def pact modifiers :eek:

Aachen is fine. I just thought we will not declare on charles when his defpact with Zara is still active.
 
@ Flo:

A def pact expires, when one of the civs having it declares on another civ (= acts as the agressor) or when one of them gets attacked and the partner joins in according to the def pact (def pacts end, when they are activated). So either way, a defpact ends when a war starts and one of the civs having the defpact is involved. And you cant sign a defpact while at war, so there cant be a defpact now


EDIT:
I just checked the save, there is no defpact now:)

...

But Charly has too much on his hands right now... ...I´m pretty courious whom he might declare at... ...maybe this ends our discussion:crazyeye:
 
Snaaty, thanks for the info. The positive modifiers come from the old def pact then?

If they do not have a defpact, I vote for attacking Charles first.
Our army is close and he has fewer cities (i.d. shorter war) than ramses. And Ramses is so backwards, we can still use our rifles and cannons against him later. Against any other civ our army soon would be outdated...
 
I'm fine with Charles as well. Aachen is looking really tasty with all those towns and seafood. :) Might take more than 5 turns to finish off Hannibal given that city to the far south, but we'll see. I don't like attaching GGs to a unit for offensive reasons, I'd rather get a medic, a military academy (if so in which city?) or a military instructor.

Great that we have a big roster again because this game is (and will continue to be) a micro-management nightmare given the amount of different islands we control.
 
What do you think about leaving the southmost city to Han for now if we can get constitution for it? We can start the war against Charles earlier with full force since shipping units north again will take some time. And we can still finish what is left of Han later... it could be that he vassalizes to somebody, tho
 
There is no city from Hanni left, where we havent an army already stationed nearby or ar near it:

The southern city on his mainland:

4 rifles and 2 cannons are laying siege on it already, I have bombarded one turn already

...

"our" island:

5 units are already there, 3 more are on a ship within 2 turns reach. Defences are also bombarded already

...

If I have missed one city somewhere, you are right of course...
 
What do you think about leaving the southmost city to Han for now if we can get constitution for it? We can start the war against Charles earlier with full force since shipping units north again will take some time. And we can still finish what is left of Han later... it could be that he vassalizes to somebody, tho
That is what I thought (but we have troops down in the south already!). If possible we should try to get a good tech (or more than one) to speed up our research.

And I agree that spending our money for a peace Zara-Han should have top priority.

And thanks to Snaaty for clarifying the thing with the defpact! I was also under the impression that Zara and Charles still have there defpact (I didn't see the coloured line for a defpact in the foreign advisor, but the modifier said "our ... proves(!)...", so that'S why I got this wrong). In that case I would vote for a quick and decisive war against Charles first (before Ramses). Logistic-wise it's the better alternative as we don't have to move our units that far.
 
Hanni WILL vassalize to sombody the turn we make peace... ...in my opinion we need to kill him now, also in regard to the emancip. penalty, since we have our units down there anyways (and enought ships to move them to charly quickly, once our "lost fleet" comes home again:D
 
IIRC there is Laptis (?) south-west of hippo, a single city on a tiny island. That is the one I was talking about.
 
Hanni WILL vassalize to sombody the turn we make peace... ...in my opinion we need to kill him now, also in regard to the emancip. penalty, since we have our units down there anyways (and enought ships to move them to charly quickly, once our "lost fleet" comes home again:D
Snaaty, if Han wants to vassalize, can't he do it anytime and to anybody he wants? The reason why I ask is that I think I remember a situation in which I was in a war with Isa and she suddenly vassalized to Mansa (who was neither in a war with me nor with her) and, thus, out of the blue Mansa DOWed me. I am not sure if that was a bug and whether it has been addressed already, but it is something which always worries me when the balance in a war on deity slowly shifts to my side.

Except for the emancip penalty I don't see why we couldn't let him survive a bit longer (in turn for some juicy techs! Otherwise NO mercy!). Since our cities are still small, do you think that penalty is really a problem? And at some point we might have to take on Han's future Master, so in that case we start with Han and the emancp problem in respect of him would be solved. However, I am also open to your idea of taking him out completely right now. Whatever the team decides in that matter.
 
I am not sure if that was a bug and whether it has been addressed already,

It is not a bug, this is how masters work when at peace to a civ during a vassalization.


I was hoping we could avoid war with Charle at the moment but since he has enough on his hands I am very worried. Attacking him may be not so hot if he was going after han, sb, or egypt instead.

We will take some diplo penalties doing so, and may get Zara against us, even Perc too. Hard to guess what to do here, since IF we were going to get attacked, then maybe it would be best to attack first.

We could stock up that fort near charle's border in the meantime with our units to wait and SEE what happens.

Anyhow, if we attacked Egypt, he doesn't have that many cities. We would mainly just take that one Egyptian continent I believe, and possibly vassal him letting him keep his other.

Maybe we should just sit tight for a few rounds with

Plan A -- Counter attack to Charle if we get attacked
Plan B -- Egypt attack if Charle goes after someone else.

Maybe there is some sort of unknown mechanic in the menus somewhere which could give us more insight into WHO Charle has decided to hit.

The bad news is Charle is gaining a lot of power... no wonder he wants to attack someone.
 
7. Getting a GM for Suhi... ...Growing Kioto a little more, then revolting to Caste + Pacif sounds like a plan to me, backed by hiring 10000 merchants (but we should really hurry here, because we want to be back in slavery + theo ASAP, because we dont produce much without the whip and pacif could be a "little" expensive in the long run...)

I am rather weary of this. We will lose two entire turns for our empire during the switches alone. And pacificsm will be VERY expensive right now for us too. Can't we just run a bunch of merchants in our FOOD-RICH Han Capital? There are commerce buildings in already, so we should be able to run merchants with ease. If we haven't built the NE already (I can't remember), we could also stick it in there, which may be a good idea anyway since it is food-rich.

8. Still not decided about our 2 GGs... ...Superhealers, Superramborifles or settling... ...or a mixture

Again, whatever you do, please don't waste a GG on a RAMBO-UNIT.

As for finishing off Han, I still am weary if it is worth it, considering we could maybe get a good tech or two out of him.
 
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