Deity of Random - Try 1

[Rusten]

Ok, so the coming priorities (by majority) is to:

- get some techs out of Hannibal and leave him with that horsehockey city to the south (doesn't seem to be a concensus, what do we want here? Assuming we'll sign peace and not capitulate (diplomacy hits)?)
- prepare our army for attacking Charlemagne
- research Medicine (won't finish it during my set obviously)
- get courthouses/trade-boosting infrastructure in new cities and keep making cannons

I probably won't play that many turns, just finishing the war vs Hannibal and preparing for the next one.

Something to consider is to part-research steam power and hope to trade with Pericles in 1-2 turns. The downside is that he might get biology by then or have started researching it which would mean we've wasted time.

Where do we settle our GG (and MI or MA)? The other will be used as a medic.

 

[CellKu]

It is not a bug, this is how masters work when at peace to a civ during a vassalization.

The way the master acts is fince. What I actually meant was the fact that a civ that I am at war with becomes a vassal of another one out of the blue. But probably in the game I mentioned Isa would have capitulated to me, had I asked her before she voluntarily bowed before Mansa.
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Back tp the game:
I like obsolete's idea of getting a GM in Carthage. With the commerce buildings there ...

With regard to the war with Han: It appears that we have a small majority leaning towards not finishing off Han completely, but more towards trying to squeeze some nice techs out of him in a peace deal.

With regard to Charles: If we wait too long he will have progressed to far and may update his units. Now we still have a relatively easy chance against him. IMO we will get the most out of our tech "lead" (that we had) if we can throw our rifles against Charles AND (then) Ramses. Ans as Snaaty said, Charles may again sign a defpact with Zara and then our chance is gone.

(Sorry for cross-posting, Rusten. It seems I mentioned a few things that you have already accounted for.)

 

[obsolete]

If we do attack Charle, Zara may attack us regardless of no def-pact. However, I can't help but notice that if we attack Charle, we will have a huge advantage in that we only need to worry about half his forces.

His continent is divided into two seperate flanks, the left/southern and the right flank. The entire right flank is totally severed due to a mountain blocking his path. Thus, maybe we should strive for a quick blow down the south, starting with his capital.

Once all that is cleaned up, we then move the boats to the right flank and one by one take the cities out until we have the entire continent. Thus, the newly moved capital & SoL can run to max efficiency there.

THEN I guess we can hit egypt...

However, I strenuously ask that we pre-plan a backup in the event that Zara DoW's us in the process.

Could we maybe, get Zara to cancel all deals with Charle just before we DoW? This would cut down on bribery.


P.S. AS for the Han issue, at most Han will give -1 happiness if running emanc. But we get +1 for having him as a vassal, so that becomes a wash. We could however, simply try to get him to change during diplomatic means? If not, then we can always use a spy here or there to FORCE him out of emancipation.

 

[obsolete]

Where do we settle our GG (and MI or MA)? The other will be used as a medic.

We could add a MA to our Hero Epic city. Thus converting it into a specialized war production factor. We could assign it to working on heavy duty parts, like naval units, ICBMs, etc.

Or, build a MA in a city which we can agree on that will later be upgraded to the West Point building.

I like obsolete's idea of getting a GM in Carthage. With the commerce buildings there ...

Sadly, banks don't open a merchant slot (I think that should be changed!) Anyhow, we DO have a market place, = 2 slots. We also have two world wonders which contribute merchant GPPs as well. Also, we can immediately build a grocer, which opens up another 2 merchant slots. And of course the SoL can fill one of these for us.

Unfortunatelly, we can't stick the NE in here, as it seems to be already in the capital. But that's no big deal. Ohhh, and by the way, we may not have to worry about the GM too much. The last save shows us with a 15% chance to pop one within the next 2 turns from the capital.

That's the good news, the bad news is that we are very likely to pop a GA. I suppose we could stockpile that for either a later golden-age, or use it on Perc's capital when we invade to make it into a fully operational pill-box when we attack.

 

[Snaaty]

When you are at war with a civ that civ can of course vassal to any other civ (it is NOT at war with). But mechanics are that the civs the future vassal is at war with have to be asked first.

But a civ vassalizing to sombody else it isnt at war with only happens (when only you are at war with this civ), when they are both pleased/friendly and the becomming master it in the mood of declaring war on you anyways (below pleased usually) and the becoming vassal has something the future master evalutates high enough for declaring on you. But in reality, it only happened to me once, and also with Mansa who can usually be bribed into doing anything so I wouldnt worry too much here.

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Back to our game:

We need 900 GP points to get a GM assuming we get no lucky GM next turn. So running 4 merchants wont be enough to get sushi, because we need to get the GM within the next 15-20 turns.

Sushi will give us 15-20 food. We soon have 30+ cities, so every single city can run then 8 scientists for free with sushi. With rep. that means 8*9*30=2160 beakers at 0 research. By using slavery a little and whipping libraries, unis and observatories first, we can increase it by 75% to 3780, still at 0 reserach...

We need to get that GM in time, therefore we need to go Pacif + Cast and should try it in our "old" capital, like Rusten supposed by running heaps of merchants. I dont think 2 turns of anachy is a high price for the above mentioned. We will even be able to keep up in tech with the two big ones after suhi I think...

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Concerning Hanni:

I still would vote for killing him completely, but if we decide to leave him with one city because we can get good techs, I would vassalize him because of the +1 relation Obsolete has metioned and the fact that we can force him out of emancip. when we want (if I rembember right, emancip penalty goes up to +2 for each civ having it, once your cities have grown to a decent size... ...and once we have Suhi, our cities can grow about 10 pop in 15 turns). I also think we dont really need to worry about Zara + Pericles, both arent backstabbers and even if they would attack us, we could bribe for peace in time I think

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EDIT:

In Karthago, I would focus on something else btw. We should build the palace, then spam missionaries for both religions for our double holy city. By doing so, we can prepare the suhi headquarter, saving us from running broke due to suhi

 

[obsolete]

We need 900 GP points to get a GM assuming we get no lucky GM next turn. So running 4 merchants wont be enough to get sushi, because we need to get the GM within the next 15-20 turns.

Hmmm. We have 10 gpts a turn due to wonders in cap. If we build a grocer and market =4x3 gpts ontop of that. We also have NE for 100% doubler. Thus...

(10 + 4x3) * 2 = 44 gpts

= 20.45 turns to pop the merchant, without running a GA or pacificsm

The problem is the risk due to artist pollution.

 

[Rusten]

Another issue before I play, are we patching to 3.17 or not?

 

[Flo7]

Would say NO

Took a look at the changes and there seems to be some changes which will make that game more difficult for us e.g. "Siege weapons cannot attack amphibiously..."

 

[Flo7]

I vote for the caste/pacifism combo. Getting sushi must be made sure. 2 turns of anarchy are imo worth the reduced risk

 

[obsolete]

Would say NO

Took a look at the changes and there seems to be some changes which will make that game more difficult for us e.g. "Siege weapons cannot attack amphibiously..."

Airships have been nerfed a bit too etc. However, I think we should avoid the patch mainly because if it is anything like the last one, we will run into quite a few SURPRISES with new bugs spread here and there.

I think we should wait until the next game starts, and hopefully those new problems will be at least known, if not fixed by a newer Bhruic's patch.

 

[Snaaty]

I would also prefere to wait a little with patching... ...I also had some bad surprises with new patches already. We still can decide to switch after the patch is out some time.

 

[CellKu]

For the sake of completion I am also against updating to the next patch.

With regard to the GM: why don't we try to get one in Kyoto AND Carthage? Thus, we would have a backup if we fail getting one in Kyoto (due to the GA pollution). This way it would take less turns for Carthage to spawn a GM than if we had to try again from scratch in Kyoto. And if we get GMs in both cities we can use one for a trade mission or a Golden Age.

@Snaaty: With regard to building the palace: Did I understand you correctly that you are now thinking about building it in Carthage? With regard to minimizing distance costs it is not really an ideal location. But probably I misunderstood you.

 

[Snaaty]

@ CellKu:

Palace into Achen

 

[Rusten]

My set got much shorter than expected. Time for a stop, discuss and give it to the next player. In short, our peace treaty with Charles expired and he immediately declared war on us. Report for the 3 turns coming in a couple of minutes.

 

[Rusten]

- Start by making the deal with Zara (peace with Hannibal).
- Military Academy in Osaka. The city has pretty decent production, quite a lot of food (but not enough to make a GM) and some plains tiles which could be workshopped for more production.

1515 AD
- Take Had(..) from Hannibal with no losses

- Spawn a GS () in our capital, but at least it was no GA--I put him to sleep for now.

- Saved up some gold and did the discussed trade with Pericles (Biology+460 gold for steam power).

Current tech screen: Worth noticing that Hannibal has electricity, I guess that's a strong motivational factor for capitulating him instead of destroying him. It would be very nice to get that in a peace deal.

End turn and....

He attacked 2 cities with 1 cavalry each, but both were defended successfully with a rifleman. I suggest you look at the save to get a complete overview of the situation. We're about to take Han's last two (main) cities, but we weren't quite ready for this war yet.

 

[obsolete]

Alright, we are in a bad spot here and it's going to get worse.

Charle just unlocked machine-guns, and right now he's working on either getting marines, or modern navies. And he's getting protective upgrades included. It may be tuff enough just to take the capital now.

We really are in some bad spots here. We don't even have any visual on Charle's cities. We don't know where his SOD's may be. We don't know what we are facing or what is facing us. Why do we STILL have no precious air-ships? Not even one? Gahhhhhh!!!!!!

I say, next turn see if we can capture Han's new capital, and then vassal him instantly (don't forget the city on his home continent as well). We should at least get MT from him, this means we can upgrade some of our horses to cavalry, which we may have to do.

We have some cities that don't even have a single defensive unit in them. I will be surprised if we don't lose any of those.

We also have a few cities with like a cannon or so defending them, but Charle has landed a cannon and other band of units which will advance and attack. And we don't have enough pop to even draft a unit! I suggest, stop all science spending, and save cash so maybe we can upgrade a guarding charriot here and there to help save a city or two? It may be enough. And we are going to have to ship some re-inforcements some places ASAP just to hold our ground.

At least, if we vassal Han next turn, his navy can be used on Charle instead of us. BTW, we have a GG in an unprotected galleon. Please watch out for that. And cities like Nagoya simply are not going to hold up defending itself by a cannon vs cavalry attacks! Something has to be done asap.

With a little luck, the party outside Hippo will take that city and after the vassal we will have one less head-ache.... But we still have a lot of work cut out for us here.

If Han won't give us electricity with MT during the vassal, I wonder if lightbulbing the GS for almost 2K beakers will make the deal go through, or if it wont recognize the new spending until the next turn.

I highly suggest we forget the whole pacificsm thing right now. We are in too much of a mess, and too unprepared.

 

[obsolete]

Alright I took another look at Utica. There is a spy there but he wont have enough points to revolt the city by next turn. HOWEVER, if you use your 3 cannons to bombard now, you can have the walls dropped to about 0 end of next turn anyhow. I suggest, move the spy down south into Charle's capital. We have 400 pts on him already. And don't forget to move spy spending from Han, to Charle.

And in fact, if you want, you COULD even take Utica this turn. One cannon can be promoted to Accuracy 1. Bombard his walls with the three and waltz in with your rifles and at least you eliminated another round of getting pummeled by Han's airships. This would also mean one less round of waiting for that city to come out of anarchy.

It's a double shrine city, so the sooner the better. What do you think?

 

[Flo7]

Looks like that is my turnset

Priorities are vasallize Han as quickly as possible after taking the last two good cities. I will take his cities as quickly as possible no bombard, just city attack, should be enough and it will remove the cultural borders which will hinder our troop movement towards the south.
He has also a considerable navy left we can employ against Charles and we can trade techs with him... even if he will not give us any tech I will sign peace.

I would suggest moving towards Aachen as soon our SOD gathered at the fort south of Utica. With luck we can take Charles Capital.
Chances are against us in that war. As Obsolete said, Charles can only research Assembly line or combustion, both will have desastrous effects on our war efforts.
Does the price for peace change when Charles finished researching AL or Comb ?

Charles seems to land with one cavalry unit and cannon on our island. Having one riflemen could be enough to save that city then when the mounted unit can be destroyed. So I will regrow cities to size 6 again for emergency drafting e.g. Nagasaki and Nagoya. If we are lucky his cavalry will not move without the cannon. That will give us the time for drafting we need at Nagoya.

We also need a galleon near the former SB island. For shipping units to empty cities or to reconquer them when taken.

And I agree with Obsolete, our intelligence is bad, we need an airship for scouting missions.
I will also move EP to Charles.

 

[Snaaty]

This are bad news... ...Charly declaring on us on THIS map means he already has focused attention on some of our lesser defended islands. There is one we captured from bull, we will loose for sure, becaus there are some attackers near and we have only 1 defender

There might be otheres we loose...

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Now we have to prepare our strik against Charly while also trying to defend ALL our islands

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We still have some ramborifles in bullland... ...if there is danger of loosing a city, try to run away with the rifle into a forest or something, just give up the city and hope for reinforcements to arrive in time. One galley with toops should be sent back towards bullland to transport units arround and get back the cities we lost. With the ones we still have available down there this sould be enought.

The rest should be directed towards Charly for invasion. We have to stop Charly beeing on the offence immediately due to terrible logistics.

Due to the changed situation, I would strike for the right part of Charlies island first (where his capital isnt). The cities there will be less defended and dont have good production, so we dont have to expect many maschinguns... ...and we dont have to ship our army through hostile terrain. Only exception could be the army from Hannis land. This might have a chance to strike for Charlies capital... ...but we must be quick due to the techs Charly might research...

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The city from Hanni that borders Charly´s land we should move all units standing next to it in... ...only kill the two units Hanni has standing next to it or they will reinforce the last city he has there. Once our army has killed Hanni completely there we can consider moving for Charlies capital...

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And more bad news are that now Hanni wont give us much for capitulation (but we have to capitulate him anyways now, because we need his naval support) because the comp will calculate in the fact that he will declare on Charly with him becomming a vassal to us

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We need arships... ...3-4 for bombarding and spying...

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EDIT:

crosspost with Flo

 

[Snaaty]

@ Flo:

Yeah you are up

Your job seems to be to organise the defenses of our islands and to prepare and land the invasion on Charly. Please try to be quick with the invasion (sail our troops the Charly ASAP), because Charly might get some nasty techs soon that would end our invasion immediately... ...and we want at least some cities of him). Not the best job, but a pretty important one. We must AVOID by all means that Charly captures and KEEPS one of our island cities long enough so it comes out of revolt and he can whip an machinegun... ...logistic nighmare, here we come

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Feel free to play in as many short sets as you like. Remember to make a break when something interesting comes up and to make an inbetween post here

The last two wars were just going too smooth, something bad was simply bound to happen... ...still I wish you fun with your set