Deity Peaceful Space [Fractal/Standard/Normal]

[Nick723]

Thanks for your attempts @LzPrst. And disclaimer, I didn’t do it either!

A few thoughts on your challenges:
- 50 AD optics and 1st to lib are not at all shabby, you’re definitely doing many things right
- in my experience, the toughest phase in these games in terms of research is the period between lib -> computers some tips for this:

- I think you’re trading with the AI too much. To be already hitting WFYBTA at this stage of the game (in an iso map to boot) suggests as much. In these games I hold on to techs a lot, only trading when I can get big value from them. Particularly if the diplo situation is favourable (a lot of people don’t like each other) there isn’t a lot of trading between AIs and the trades between human <> AI can significantly advance the overall tech pace.

- As @sylvanllewelyn says, save your golden ages for this period.

- For the diplo piece, being attacked by Saladin. I think having people as cautious / annoyed is sometimes unavoidable, but i like to have options to get them to pleased in a single turn. Saladin was also a behemoth in my game, and when he started plotting I thought I was toast. However, quick switch into judaism, plus gifting him a tech, gets him to pleased and then can beg.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@LzPrst

I've been super busy so I haven't finished my rerun, but based on what you've written so far, I'll offer the following thoughts on diplomacy and trades.

1. I could have misinterpreted, but it seems like you've gone for Liberalism right after Optics, instead of using a great person to bulb Astro and complete it before racing to Liberalism. Not getting Astronomy on the heel of Optics (e.g. Optics 50 AD, Astro no later than 350 AD) is costing you 70 beakers per turn and limits you badly.

2. WFYABTA is tracked only from the point of contact . One way to limit WFYABTA is to trade like crazy with the first person you met, meet the second person, trade like crazy....etc. In practice, this doesn't amount to much, but I think I only have 3-4 trades after my initial flurry. Another obvious but salient point is that the small techs like hunting, archery, polytheism, are not worth trading for.

3. On contact: If the AI is mad at you because you traded with their worst enemy, on contact, gift them between 10-40 bucks to get temporarily to cautious, open trade routes, and maybe give them a slightly advantageous trade for a more sustained "We appreciate your fair and forthright trades".

4. After full contact: find whoever everyone hates and cancel relations with them. They'll get declared on. If you're looking for more indicators: look at Factions on this guide. It will explain why everyone hates Hatshepsut often: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

 

[LzPrst]

It seems in my games the AI is much stronger than in the other games I've seen posted.

Caesar has insane tech speed, I beelined for optics right after monarchy, didn't even grab alphabet, and who already had it when I met him? Hail frigging Caesar.

And the others as well, the demographics show most of them are multiples ahead of me in science production...

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

It seems in my games the AI is much stronger than in the other games I've seen posted.

Caesar has insane tech speed, I beelined for optics right after monarchy, didn't even grab alphabet, and who already had it when I met him? Hail frigging Caesar.

And the others as well, the demographics show most of them are multiples ahead of me in science production...

Based on the range of liberalism dates you're posting, I think the AI is roughly the same. Since I'm playing a cottage game and not a spy game, I'll post a mini-update on stats now for you. Hope this helps.

Spoiler Up to 1270 AD, Tech and Beakers per turn: :

YEAR	TURN	KEY TECH	Approximate Breakeven BPT	BPT at 100% Science
900 BC (Earlier Post)	78	Monarchy	60	78
775 BC (Earlier Post)	84	Academy	93	115
1 AD (Earlier Post)	115	Optics	115	198
350 AD	129	Astronomy	202	290
560 AD	134	Education	280	415
820 AD	151	Liberalism for Scientific Method	427	606
1040 AD	164	Physics	485	722
1120 AD	172	Biology	580	848
1200 AD	180	Communism, Constitution	750	930
1270 AD	187	Steam Power, Economics	950	1157

AI Techs at Liberalism:

At 1200 AD - 4th in GNP, but well ahead in tech - they have a million culture points now.

T187 - Capital + national park city:

 

[LzPrst]

Academy

Which tech do you mean? Alphabet? Or do you mean collect GPP and get a GS?

 

[LzPrst]

I can't seem to get things to go right after Optics. Can't bulb Astronomy cause the GS would have given me Philosophy instead, and despite going for all the cottages possible I'm not able to follow @CarpoolKaraoke GNP table. I have no chance of getting to education in 540 AD, by then I had 9 turns left on Astronomy and just tried hopping to Philosophy to get my GS bulbing capability, but I realize it's not going to work anyway.

I'll throw in the save game if anyone is interested helping me see where I'm going wrong.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Which tech do you mean? Alphabet? Or do you mean collect GPP and get a GS?

Yep, that was the turn I setup the Academy via Great Scientist

I can't seem to get things to go right after Optics. Can't bulb Astronomy cause the GS would have given me Philosophy instead

.Well there's your problem, you got to Monarchy via Meditation and/or teched Code of Laws before bulbing Astro: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/references/great-people-tech-preferences/

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler Victory Date :

T293 - 1846 AD, Save attached.

Filling out the rest of the table:

YEAR	TURN	KEY TECH	Approximate Breakeven BPT	BPT at 100% Science
900 BC	78	Monarchy	60	78
775 BC	84	Academy	93	115
1 AD	115	Optics	115	198
350 AD	129	Astronomy	202	290
560 AD	134	Education	280	415
820 AD	151	Liberalism for Scientific Method	427	606
1040 AD	164	Physics	485	722
1120 AD	172	Biology	580	848
1200 AD	180	Communism, Constitution	750	930
1270 AD	187	Steam Power, Economics	950	1157
1340 AD	195	Assembly Line	1040	1246
1400 AD	200	Stole Rifling	1120	1321
1565 AD	224	Plastics, begun 3 Gorges Dam	1275	1603
1675 AD	246	Superconductors; Ecology Finished the Internet for Artillery, Rocketry	1500	1746
1720 AD	255	Apollo Program Finished. Forced into US, Emancipation	1200	1485
1775 AD	265	1 turn away from Fusion	1250	1570
1824 AD	282	1 turn from Launch, double engines

Internet haul: Artillery, Rocketry

Internet Tech Advantage:

T172 Long sign of impending war, delayed by begging. Fusion Engineer + Scientist will launch an 8 turn golden age to build 5 casings in 8 turns

T282: National Park city loses its forests to finish the Stasis Chamber.

T284: Buying battleships and losing fish to strike at the transport group:

 

[Nick723]

Super nice work @CarpoolKaraoke !

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Do you remember the dates or turns of your first three (3) great scientists? I've never managed to get both academy and two more great scientists for astronomy. I can never find enough food to run two libraries at the same time very early.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Do you remember the dates or turns of your first three (3) great scientists? I've never managed to get both academy and two more great scientists for astronomy. I can never find enough food to run two libraries at the same time very early.

Spoiler :

1 for academy, 1 for Astronomy, 1 for education. I did not try to force double on Astronomy.

 

[Pedro78]

Hi,
Haven't played Civ in forever, but couldn't resist giving my take on this map.

Spoiler :

SIP, mine the pigs. Ag-mining-BW-AH-Pottery (AH before Pottery cause workers too busy choppin' to build cottages)
Built 3 warriors while growing to size 4, fogbusting these FPs with no good spots for fortifying a warrior was paramount.
Chopped the whole BFC to build settlers & workers (I don't think saving these for a T200 National Park can compete with early hammers).
Went for Aest+Lit because I should be in time for GLib & bpt is so high that it'll only slow down Optics by 2-3 turns.

Was helped by a little bit of map knowledge & reloaded a few times to optimize micromanagement, which was still pretty bad. Didn't give much thought about how far I should grow cities #2 and #3 (probably should've organized to get a GS sooner) & I'll be a couple turns late hooking up the marble. Not too happy with the save (as usual) but I think it's good enough to showcase an important strategic point: When you have rich land to settle, #1 priority is to pump out as many settlers/workers as you need in order to start working all the good tiles ASAP. (even more of a no-brainer with a FIN leader)


Another detail: one of the first things I did with my worker is to build that road 1SE of Timbuktu: it alone connects the first 3 cities & allows to get both city #2 and city #3 1T sooner. Quite a big impact for 2 worker turns.
Also, with a SPI leader, don't forget to switch out of slavery when you don't need it, saves a few precious


As far as space goes, I'd assume the next milestones are Optics, Astro bulb, Edu (Oxford), Communism, AL. In a perfect world, you'd want to Lib Communism, build the Kremlin and whip Universities, not sure how realistic that is, though. Beelining the Internet can be a good strat if a couple AIs are close to you in tech, otherwise I'd skip it.

Saves attached. It's almost 3pm and I still haven't had breakfast. Kinda reminds me why I stopped playing Civ in the first place

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Hi,
Haven't played Civ in forever, but couldn't resist giving my take on this map.

Spoiler :

SIP, mine the pigs. Ag-mining-BW-AH-Pottery (AH before Pottery cause workers too busy choppin' to build cottages)
Built 3 warriors while growing to size 4, fogbusting these FPs with no good spots for fortifying a warrior was paramount.
Chopped the whole BFC to build settlers & workers (I don't think saving these for a T200 National Park can compete with early hammers).
Went for Aest+Lit because I should be in time for GLib & bpt is so high that it'll only slow down Optics by 2-3 turns.

Was helped by a little bit of map knowledge & reloaded a few times to optimize micromanagement, which was still pretty bad. Didn't give much thought about how far I should grow cities #2 and #3 (probably should've organized to get a GS sooner) & I'll be a couple turns late hooking up the marble. Not too happy with the save (as usual) but I think it's good enough to showcase an important strategic point: When you have rich land to settle, #1 priority is to pump out as many settlers/workers as you need in order to start working all the good tiles ASAP. (even more of a no-brainer with a FIN leader)


Another detail: one of the first things I did with my worker is to build that road 1SE of Timbuktu: it alone connects the first 3 cities & allows to get both city #2 and city #3 1T sooner. Quite a big impact for 2 worker turns.
Also, with a SPI leader, don't forget to switch out of slavery when you don't need it, saves a few precious


As far as space goes, I'd assume the next milestones are Optics, Astro bulb, Edu (Oxford), Communism, AL. In a perfect world, you'd want to Lib Communism, build the Kremlin and whip Universities, not sure how realistic that is, though. Beelining the Internet can be a good strat if a couple AIs are close to you in tech, otherwise I'd skip it.

Saves attached. It's almost 3pm and I still haven't had breakfast. Kinda reminds me why I stopped playing Civ in the first place

Pretty interesting! I think Great LIbrary is a solid option to remove the cost of going for an early academy. I am not sure as to the deadline for building the Great Library. Most of the time, I treat Monarchy/Lit as either/or techs.

I like the idea of stashing warriors in multiple cities. It is not something I usually attempt, but mostly out of aesthetic, rather than actual math.

One could argue that if AH is not in the books, and all forests are to be chopped, that it would be better to settle on the plains hill. My first attempt did the weird Agriculture --> Pottery --> BW to pay for fogbust, but I conceed going straight to BW may be better in that case.

Curious to see your Astronomy date.

 

[Pedro78]

Most of the time, I treat Monarchy/Lit as either/or techs.

And rightly so. This is the 1/100 iso start where you both have marble & lots of commerce.

I like the idea of stashing warriors in multiple cities

It does look ugly, and so do the multiple , but this is more than justified by all the 3F5C tiles.

My first attempt did the weird Agriculture --> Pottery --> BW to pay for fogbust

This tech path would probably be justified if it weren't for the oasis + riverside wine spot, in which case going for BW directly would force you to sit at 9-10bpt for many turns. Here there is enough early commerce to priorize over pretty much anything else.

 

[Pedro78]

Curious to see your Astronomy date.

Probably not going to continue this one. I'd want to replay the last 15-20 turns & plan city growth, marble & GPP a bit better. That being said T110 Optics and T115 Astro should be achievable if we can trade for Calendar. But getting Astro this early would probably mean skipping an early Academy. Not sure what's best, although my gut says get Astro asap.

 

[Nick723]

Great to see more interest in this map! And nice to see a play for the marble, will be interesting to see if that pays off.

The real fun and games on this map definitely start post Astro, so I’d encourage you to keep going!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Probably not going to continue this one. I'd want to replay the last 15-20 turns & plan city growth, marble & GPP a bit better. That being said T110 Optics and T115 Astro should be achievable if we can trade for Calendar. But getting Astro this early would probably mean skipping an early Academy. Not sure what's best, although my gut says get Astro asap.

Kindly do play it out. I'd like to see how great library is built / how you get GPP in time. I can't play out your save myself without buffy.