[BNW] Deity Random map Continents

[Grendeldef]

hmm so I wouldn't learn anything you think by continuing on this map? Goal is to learn the game better - and I think continents are a "normal game" the sailing was to get the fish quickly. I didn't have anyplace else I could go city wise for luxes really it seemed to me. After last game the archers may have been an over compensation. hmm...

No, it's not that bad - every game offers something to learn from. It's more about the learned unit of information vs time consumed ratio which will be extremely bad if you're playing purely reactionary game which the crappy start will result.
Learning is a gradual process where most new stuff relies of something previously learned or transferred to this game it'd better to master the turns 0-30 before tackling later game stuff - Sailing & naval stuff in general most often have no place before T30 hence it's mostly irrelevant and should be ignored in the early. This also means that Continents offers no additional value over Pangaea but the latter offers an advantage as AI wastes beakers & hammers to navy. A minor edge but an edge nevertheless.

Diplomacy is your friend when defence fail. Sell your crap to potential attacker, bribe him/her to go somewhere else even if the price is high, move your units out of reach in neutral territory, denounce him a turn or two before his closest unit can cross the border - works almost always and if the DoW comes place a couple of Warriors or Scouts of suitable hills and the gloriously incompetent will practically suicide large portion of his army and willing to make white peace.
The other option is DoW early and it as that - most likely nothing will in 10 or 20 turns after which white peace is fine.,

 

[mbbcam]

Once again, I agree with Grendeldef -- it is a fairly lousy start, and I, for one, would not bother to play it. The perennial problem with being on the coast is that you have low production -- this is just a given. Depending on whether you start on an inlet, a promontory, or a straight coastline, anything from three quarters to a quarter of your tiles will be giving you no production, and will be impossible to improve until you get Sailing (a second tier Tech). If you have no hills on your land tiles, you are pretty stuffed in the early part of the game. Everything will take longer to build. You may have to get a Lighthouse to get up to a decent yield from the sea, and that means teching along the top of the tree, whereas early war really requires you to go Construction and Machinery pretty damned quick. You may also have to build Workshops, Stables or Forges earlier than you might if you were inland (you might not build Stables or Forges at all if inland). On Deity, the AI gets large bonuses to production, and if you find yourself at war around T150, do not be surprised if the AI pushes out a Unit every turn.

When all is said and done, underneath the pretty pixels, Civ is just a numbers game. I sometimes think the best players are accountants or engineers. They are always thinking about the numbers. You can work some things out mathematically -- from your start you can work out exactly how long it will take to build something, how long it will take to grow, and how much science you will have. The only way you can influence the numbers in the early game (other than by building) is by changing the place you settle, finding ruins, and meeting other Civs and City States and interacting with them. I know this is stating the obvious, but on lower levels your competitors have less influence on your game. You can be much less focused and still win. In fact, I would go so far as to say that playing a lot on lower levels can actually be an impediment to success at Deity, because you have to adapt and unlearn a lot of habits that were not detrimental at lower levels, but can be obstacles on Deity.

You might find it useful to look at FilthyRobot's video on starting locations:

. He is a multi-player, so his considerations are always inclined in that direction, but this is one case in which it does not make too much difference.

But yeah -- rivers and hills. Good to have.

 

[dwcole78]

REALLY disagree with taking away continents as the continents adds the sea layer to the game and pangea just makes things to easy and two much early military. I am a builder I like my sea barrier and I like having to worry about ships. Yes I agree under all the pretty pictures it is a numbers game but the pretty pictures do matter. Still ok will reroll to look for hills and or riverside with some luxes and a food unit. Does feel somewhat like cheating but then at this level the AI certainly cheats.

 

[mbbcam]

I didn't say take away the continents -- I often play them myself. But you need to be aware of the disadvantages inherent in a coastal start. And you did ask for advice ... we are just trying to help you.

If you are really interested in the naval aspect of the game, you could try the Communitas map script, which you can find on these forums. It can be set up to give a wide ocean rift which means no communication between the continents until somebody builds a caravel. It was devised by a player who wanted to encourage naval exploration and warfare.

 

[dwcole78]

No offense taken here understand you are trying to help! Just giving my reasons for the firm settings I have. I mean I could make it easier on myself by playing on a faster speed - but I have zero desire to do that. One thing I have found that on a costal start on continents I could be on an island by myself - which is ideal for the way I play. So going to play a few turns of this one see if I am but most likely will end up rerolling placing new pics here. Vid was interesting thank you for it. Try to learn from meinteam vids but his vid and play style sometimes....

Man was hard to give up last one as I found el dorado quickly but then ran into Askahi again...

save and pic of one three restarts later I think is a good starting position. Is on a river I have a hill, two luxes, sheep, and wheat. I might move into the hill not sure thoughts? (I expect I have a crazy civ around me to make up for it...)

 

[Grendeldef]

Now, that looks like a valid entry lvl Deity start. Settle one tile to the South so you'll get the mountain/river start and then spend first gold to buy the hill by Cotton and Ivory to prevent AI getting there right away. Even better if you can afford to buy the Cotton as well. The rest is so easy the game is practically won and you can get back to rolling seaside jungle starts

 

[beetle]

Looks like a nice start! Don’t give up the river for a hill, as Watermill is very good. I like Observatory over a hill.

 

[vadalaz]

Depending on what's hidden in the fog, settling on the Ivory by the mountain could also be pretty good. You lose Cotton but you could plant an expo there later.

 

[dwcole78]

so moving twice to settle on the Ivory wouldn't be bad...it seems like moving that far would take to many turns...oh wait no only one. So Still not sure why the mountain river start is so good. The mountain is an unworkable tile...what am I missing?

 

[mbbcam]

Being next to the mountain allows you to build an Observatory -- lots of Science.

 

[Acken]

Move only once to keep access to sheep+wheat

 

[Grendeldef]

After playing ~15 turns with this I, sadly, once more have a single word advice.

 

[GenuineRisk]

Do you have to play Korea? Yes, they are God-tier, but I find coastal start bias can be really hit-or-miss, and if you're not even surviving the early game, the science from specialists doesn't mean anything.

Arabia might be a good choice with Desert start bias and the Bazaar should keep the AI happy and be good for your economy. Poland should usually give you decent production starts, too. If you can survive to the late-game, you should be able to at least try for a Diplomatic Victory, and even if you can't win, at least you'll be able to experience the pace of a Deity game and learn some things in the process.

Also +1 vote for playing Pagaea first. You may prefer Continents, but Pangaea is the "standard" map, and it is far better for learning how to play than Continents. Learn to win on Pangaea, and then play Continents.

 

[Blatc]

It's worth developing some guidelines as to what is a 'playable' start, for you and your current goals, and also to understand the potential of a given location. Count the number of workable tiles that will give:
*3 yield (food + production) immediately: ex. sheep, cattle, wheat, etc.
*4+ yield (food + production) with worker improvement, building (granary, stable) and/or Civil Service
*3+ food before Fertilizer; particularly in area that is hilly or lacks access to open water, you need to ensure you'll be able to grow and that primarily requires 3+ yield food tiles

The reason a Salt-heavy start is so strong, aside from gaining 2 units of food/production upon Mining vs. 1, is the food/production balance necessary for a good start. Salt on Plains is useful to work whether you are focused on growing rapidly, experiencing little to no growth due to unhappiness, or building Settlers.

Luxury resources that will yield 3+ (food + production) offer more value than those yielding 2 (food + production), because generally speaking 1 hammer (or 1 food) is worth more than 1 gold. Look at the hammer vs. gold cost of producing vs. buying units and buildings to emphasize the difference. While you will need a variety of Luxuries eventually, food and production is vital for the capital, so cotton, ivory, etc. better to have in expo than to rely on early in capital.

As vadalaz suggests, it's worth looking to see what lies to the SE (move warrior first, then Settler). If SE terrain is good, including a 2+ food tile next to the Ivory to work immediately, settling on the Ivory increases food yield over settling 1 tile S on plains tile: your city yields 2 food by default and the riverside plains will be a 3 food/1 hammer tile with farm and Civil Service. You also get the gold yield of the Ivory without having to work a low value 2-yield (1 food and 1 production) tile. However, if no 2+ food tiles next to the Ivory, you'll need to be working that Wheat tile right away, so move 1 tile and plant.

It can be worthwhile to wait a few turns before settling; however, always move the warrior first and have a clear idea of the increased value and reason for settling elsewhere. Some notable factors that can quickly make up for a few turns delay in settling:
*ability to settle on hill, which gives a yield of 4: 2 food and 2 production
*ability to work 3 food tile immediately, will grow to 2 pop in 5 turns vs. 8 with a 2 food tile
*ability to work 2 or more 3-yield (preferably 2+ food) tiles quickly
*obviously best to have a net gain, or at least even trade-off, of luxuries

 

[beetle]

…settle on the Ivory wouldn't be bad…

Settle on mining lux (except Salt) is okay. Other lux you want to improve, but do not Settle on them.

The mountain is an unworkable tile...what am I missing?

Settle next to mountain to enable Observatory, which is a very strong mid-game building. Mountain in first or second ring unlocks two low-competition but strong World Wonders.

 

[GenuineRisk]

Settle on mining lux (except Salt) is okay. Other lux you want to improve, but do not Settle on them.

Settle next to mountain to enable Observatory, which is a very strong mid-game building. Mountain in first or second ring unlocks two low-competition but strong World Wonders.

Camp and Plantation luxuries are mostly pretty bad for food/production, so it makes perfect sense to settle on them for the happiness and gold.

 

[Blatc]

I agree with GenuineRisk, it's very obvious there's more value to settle on most luxuries vs. comparable ground next to them, all else being equal.

 

[beetle]

Thanks for the correction. I am remembering now about Incense being particularly good for settling, since it typically spawns on flat dry desert which is hardly ever worth working.

 

[raider980]

It's worth developing some guidelines as to what is a 'playable' start, for you and your current goals, and also to understand the potential of a given location. Count the number of workable tiles that will give:
*3 yield (food + production) immediately: ex. sheep, cattle, wheat, etc.
*4+ yield (food + production) with worker improvement, building (granary, stable) and/or Civil Service
*3+ food before Fertilizer; particularly in area that is hilly or lacks access to open water, you need to ensure you'll be able to grow and that primarily requires 3+ yield food tiles

The reason a Salt-heavy start is so strong, aside from gaining 2 units of food/production upon Mining vs. 1, is the food/production balance necessary for a good start. Salt on Plains is useful to work whether you are focused on growing rapidly, experiencing little to no growth due to unhappiness, or building Settlers.

Luxury resources that will yield 3+ (food + production) offer more value than those yielding 2 (food + production), because generally speaking 1 hammer (or 1 food) is worth more than 1 gold. Look at the hammer vs. gold cost of producing vs. buying units and buildings to emphasize the difference. While you will need a variety of Luxuries eventually, food and production is vital for the capital, so cotton, ivory, etc. better to have in expo than to rely on early in capital.

As vadalaz suggests, it's worth looking to see what lies to the SE (move warrior first, then Settler). If SE terrain is good, including a 2+ food tile next to the Ivory to work immediately, settling on the Ivory increases food yield over settling 1 tile S on plains tile: your city yields 2 food by default and the riverside plains will be a 3 food/1 hammer tile with farm and Civil Service. You also get the gold yield of the Ivory without having to work a low value 2-yield (1 food and 1 production) tile. However, if no 2+ food tiles next to the Ivory, you'll need to be working that Wheat tile right away, so move 1 tile and plant.

It can be worthwhile to wait a few turns before settling; however, always move the warrior first and have a clear idea of the increased value and reason for settling elsewhere. Some notable factors that can quickly make up for a few turns delay in settling:
*ability to settle on hill, which gives a yield of 4: 2 food and 2 production
*ability to work 3 food tile immediately, will grow to 2 pop in 5 turns vs. 8 with a 2 food tile
*ability to work 2 or more 3-yield (preferably 2+ food) tiles quickly
*obviously best to have a net gain, or at least even trade-off, of luxuries

Wow this is good. Thanks! I'm going to print this out and keep it next to my computer for the next game.

 

[dwcole78]

and that one word advice is reroll Gren? I am curious why people say pandora is standard map. I always assumed Continents was standard and it gave the possibility for Island start...

Anyway going to play a few turns (maybe 15 or 20) of this one post pics and look for continued advice.

So 15 to 20 turns became 60...because I LOVE this start. We will see how it turns out but I can survive 100 turns at least I think.

Pic presented as thumbnail to avoid spoilers also is there a way to control where steam records screenshots - boy is it annoying to go to where it puts them normally.

Build Order (and this was because of map) Scout, Scout, shrine, Granary (new map at this point) worker (pop was only 2 by here), library (korea and map) settler, caravan

Research - pottery, archery (hut), animal husbandry, writing (korea), wheel (road water mill), calendar, mining, bronze work, trapping, philosophy (korea).

Plan spread out cities work up to libraries universities science all the way.

It will be hard for me not to play more of this but will try to do so not until next weekend time for advice. Second city founded for stone and sea. Third thinking about putting to south of korea near fish. Pantheon choose oral tradition extra culture helpful and not enough religion for me to make a run to one with start. Thought about going + for natural wonders but likely still wouldn't be enough.