Deity trashsystem game ...

[shyuhe]

I agree on your analysis of my save ungy (sorry, no CIV access here so I can't see the other games). Expanding boldly is critical on deity and I realized it after I settled my city.

 

[Giaur]

@Ungy: I saw before that barb archer went on copper and did not pillage it. He attacked my capital. I agree with all your objections, but not with capital's placement

 

[CellKu]

So here are my comments on the other games:

Betruger:

Spoiler :

I like your plans for the 3rd city to get the gem site. With IW already been researched, it can be developed pretty quickly, thus the budget can be balanced (due to the gems).

With regard to the placement Utrecht I feel a bit uneasy (that is actually due to my own game, where I am not sure whether I should take the barb city or not). There has to be a city somewhere in that region to block off the other civs. However, the way you placed Utrecht, it has three useless tiles (two mountains, one desert). On the other hand, I see that there is iron right next to the second mountain. Thus, you will be able to able to claim it certainly. That is definitely very good!

Also good is that the settler for the third city is almost ready. So land grabbing can continue and the gems site should be yours! The capital is at its happy cap and thus able to produce relatively quickly. Research is relatively quick (already into writing after IW). Perhaps, you could push the military side a bit during the next turns - to ensure the AI doesn't regard you as to weak (you have 4 warriors, but only one axeman so far).

ungy:

Spoiler :

Already three cities is a good start, moreover you already have three axemen.
With regard to Utrecht you have a good spot for initial growth, as Utrecht doesn't suffer from unhealthiness of the jungle (as in my game) and it gets the rice. In the long run there is a risk of not getting the other gem sites (at least another one).
Regarding your build- and tech-order I concur with your own comments. Especially tech-wise I think IW should be a priority to hook up the gems.
With regard to land grabbing you should not forget the south. Since you moved your first settler to the north you have left plenty of room in the south (with sheep, silk and silver around). I would suspect Pacal to advance (as can be seen in skyuhe's game and from what I experienced as well). Would be sad if these potential city spots (with sheep, silver, silk) were lost.

Giaur:

Spoiler :

Generally teching to archery is the safest bet with all these barbs running around. So, I would say from that point of view, you played it right. Only that in this special case, with copper in the BFC, the other players who gambled a bit were lucky - thus saving a few turns.
I like that you already have barracks, thus raising your power rating. Moreover, with four or so archers you should be safe on the military side.
The location of Utrecht is nice - to push off Sitting Bull. You also have a chance to get that gems site. With Utrecht already quite up north you might even be able to push a bit higher to the north than I did. However, like ungy you should watch out for the south where you can also find interesting city sites and resources. Just ensure that Pacal does not block you and gets them himself.

skyuhe:

Spoiler :

You are already into aesthetics, the quickest of us towards Lit. And you were really lucky to have popped myst. However, perhaps a detour via IW for the northern city should be given a thought.
The close Mayan city is a little bit awkward - maybe you can take it over culture-wise later. Actually, I almost experienced the same. Luckily, I had a settler just finished in Amsterdam and was moving towards the cows there. Although it seems you are getting boxed in, you might still be able to secure some important spots. That would, however, require some chopping to churn out settlers and archers during the next turns.

CellKu

 

[CellKu]

ungy, thanks for your comments! I concur with almost all of what you said about my game, especially with regard to the high risk I am taking with the lone warrior in Utrecht. Thus, sending an axeman there is on my priority list for the next turns. However, I need all the axemen close to the barb city right now and couldn't produce more until now.

With regard to the barb city. I am not so sure if it is really that badly located. It's actually the only desert tile around. With a city this 0-tile suddenly gets 2 food etc. Moreover, there is only one mountain in the BFC. Since there has to be a city somewhere in that region (to block off the AI-civs) I actually quite like it. And for the dike it is AFAIK not important to have the city at the river, because you can build it even in cities that are not located at a river (correct me if I am wrong).
Only really downside I see with this city is that I saw in Betruger's game that there is iron on the other side of the second mountain. That would be nice to get!
Btw, what did you mean with "it looks just right to leave an opportunity"? That I should take the second barb city? Or that I should not worry about it and leave if to the AI civs to raze it?

With regard to the GLib: Actually, I don't think we have a chance to get it. With the detour via IW and no marble around that would be pretty unlikely (I think impossible). That is actually why I did not value the forests around Amsterdam as much as early settlers and axemen...

CellKu

 

[ungy]

And for the dike it is AFAIK not important to have the city at the river, because you can build it even in cities that are not located at a river (correct me if I am wrong).

I thought city had to be on river or water but not sure. Can anyone help us out with certainty? City is currently size 1 so I believe will autoraze if taken before growth.

Btw, what did you mean with "it looks just right to leave an opportunity"? That I should take the second barb city? Or that I should not worry about it and leave if to the AI civs to raze it?

I meant that it looked like a stack that was going to take a barb city but not strong enough--even with the AI bonuses most likely Sitting Bull will lose a battle or two and leave easy pickings. So you probably have an opportunity to pick up a barb city on the cheap. Most likely he's headed to the western city so you'll need to position accordingly.

 

[ungy]

I agree with all your objections, but not with capital's placement

I'm not sure on the capital--I settled there as well. I just really like the looks of Cellku's capital.

 

[Giaur]

I played ungy's version and unfortunately was dowed 375BC.

Spoiler :

Axeman can do nothing about catapults. Utrecht was captured. Perhaps it could have been recaptured, but I made one big mistake. Work on great scientist was lost. I am out this turn, unless it happens that all of us are dowed. I have 275BC save, so I can still continue to 1AD moment.

 

[Giaur]

About commenting other games. Level of playing here is little higher than f.e. in Imperial Trash, so there is not much to comment, but I'll try find some time today and give at least one tip to everyone of you.

 

[Giaur]

Spoiler :

In fact I could not believe that Charlemagne lose only one catapult, when I lose about 3-4 axeman and 2 spears. The colleteral damage I suffered made that one of my spears died to chariot. But, in fact I saw this before, I was destroyed once by Hammurabi this way. Only this time I faced non-agressive swords and Utrecht was placed on hills. This was a bit dissapointment and makes me think that catapults (too strong damage), archers (too weak strength) are badly balanced. But I used this powerful catapult's use before on deity and ever none AI complained. I did not complained too . I am not sure if early war is the way to go on this map. I have not tried Swords/Cats war on BtS yet. Lack of ivory makes me think that we should wait for maces at least and DoW the civ, that do not know Machinery&CS. This was a small tip. I managed to settle in 6 spots, but no more space to settle. One city had no food resources (only irrigated flood plain), but it blocked Sitting Bull. Both Charlemagne and Bull settled in very weak spots - this might have gave me advantage. Perhaps I will give another informations concerning my game, but for now I think this report should do just fine.

 

[Betruger]

Some comments

My own game:

Spoiler :

The good:
- I've already got 3 workers an almost ready settler poised to go grab gems, and IW researched. That means gems will come online very quickly.
- I've already built barracks in Uttrecht.
- I've go an almost ready axeman in capital (had to stop builidng him because of bronze pillage)
- Capital is already on pumping-out-settlers-and-workers mode.
- Only 1 religion present on the continent so far (Hinduism). We may get friendly with everyone if it spreads fast enough. This is potentially HUGE.

The bad:
- Capital location turned out to be suboptimal. Let's face it, it sucks. It's too low on food to be efficient in early game. Settling on the wines turned out to be much better option, mainly thanks to additional food source. Settling 2N on the hill is also better, but has a downside of running into health problems in the early game.
- Got my bronze pillaged thus I'm low on military at the moment. Will have 3 axeman in 3 turns though.
- In Utrecht I built barracks first instead of an axeman, and now I'll have to whip axeman for 1 pop to prevent pigs from getting pillaged.

The ugly:
- Poped only 2 huts, getting only about 30 gold in total.

Overall I think the position is excellent IF I manage to settle that jungle as planned. That's almost sure but you never know. There shouldn't be a problem to get GLib, AIs don't priorotize literature and with 2 gems we'll research that quickly. There are lot of useless forests to the south that we can chop for GLib. True they'll only net about 10 hammers each, but that's still ok.

CellKu

Spoiler :

Good placement of Utrecht (though I'd prefer 1E), ensuring you will get gems, but that city is non-productive until IW, and maybe it would be better to settle it later. Your military is impressive and with one more axe you'll take that barb city for sure. So you'll probably be the fastest to expand to 4 cities, and you'll do it without neglecting military
However I think that Hague is very poor city. It has no decent food source (after working plains cow and floodplains you'll have 4 food surplus. There's just not enough food to cottage those plains, and there's no production for the same reason). Pre-biology this city will be next to useless I'm afraid.

Giaur

Spoiler :

Going for archers was a good move that let you scout and fogbust very efficiently. Unfortunately, going for bronze turned out to be better in this partiular case. Capital placement is good, though I feel that settling on wines would be stronger. Still, it's certainly better than where I settled.
Utrecht is placed suboptimally, beacuse it takes away rice from the future gem city (which is under the fog so you couldn't know that).

Ungy

Spoiler :

3 city is good. Capital location is good. Hague placement is bad. Same thing as with CellKu, It has no decent food source (after working plains cow and floodplains you'll have 4 food surplus. There's just not enough food to cottage those plains, and there's no production for the same reason). Pre-biology this city will be next to useless I'm afraid.
I think Utrecht location is interesting, but unfortunately it makes problematic to work the other 3 gems pre-calendar. That's ok if you'll research it yourself, but if you plan to get GLib there's no telling when you will get calendar. Also you are quite far away from IW, so you'll not take advantage of those gems until later.
Military is very nice. With 3 axemen you are completly safe form barbs.
Capital at size 3 is so-so, and it's too early for granaries I think.

shyuhe

Spoiler :

The best capital placement short/mid term. Long term settling 2N might be better due to all floodplains, but I feel settling on the wines was the strongest move. It also lets your second city to be placed the way it is, and I think it's the best place for second city. Lots of food and prodcution will really help early expansion, while it has lots of floodplains to cottage when you'll start getting low on commerce. And it grabs horses too.
The only downside is that you started building a cottage already instead of a farm or, even better, plains hill mine. For now production is much more important than commerce as you need to grab as much good land as you can.
Scouting is poor though, you didnt find the gems location in the north, and it'll be a while until you'll research IW, so I'm not sure if settling there is a good choice in your case. But if not there then where?

 

[Snaaty]

Turns out I found this threat to late... ...but anyways, in spoiler is another save for 1500 BC and some comments

Spoiler :

I didn´t like stating position too much, not enough food. Moved warrior on hill nearby, found more sheep, settled capital on wine to get the commerce boost (wine is crap anyways).

Pretty standard research path & building order:

hunting, AH, mining, archery,bronze,wheel,pottery,writing, started on ironworking to cut down jungle

worker, warrior, archer, archer... ...reseached bronze, then I found out about bronze in BFC, worker, axe, axe, settler, worker, settler, right now working on next worker.

City placement:

along the river, but not ideal, because I wanted to get a closed cultural border ASAP because two AI´s are pretty near (one city misses the river)

View attachment 164619


Army/Units:

3 workers, 2 warriors, 2 archers, 2 axes, 3 cities

Workers:
Chopping & cottaging to get economy up again

Plan:

Finish worker in capital, then building baracks & some more axes, scout jungle and capture barb city there (there seem to be diamonds), building another settler/worker combo and get horses,clam and silver

Save:
View attachment 164620

 

[Snaaty]

Busy reading spoilers of other games now

EDIT:

@ Betruger:

Congratulation on your deity win

EDIT2:

I don´t mind if I´m too late to join in, I just continue my game as shadow game then and post after the other are in...

 

[Betruger]

Hey Snaaty, thanks. Nice to be able to compare my game to someone who actually beats deity regularly

 

[Giaur]

Here are comments:

Spoiler :

Snaaty: You are building cottage in low-food city. Perhaps 2-3 farms would help in growth. I farm the strongest tiles: in this case flood plain. btw. Why Utrecht has no fresh water? IW seems too expensive to me in this case. Nice location of Hague. I also want Sitting Bull to settle near Utrecht - pearhaps you will flip his city - that would be great.

Betruger: The question: Would you be able to construct dike later in the capital? It has some lake in working area, but no access to river and ocean. I liked Snaaty's location of spice-city more. You gained a strong city, but settling in-between will give you small city. btw. I would choose city to the west (marked spot). Good diplo situation for now - only hinduism known. IW known, but we do not know if you be able to grab gems.

CellKu: You burned forests that might hava have better use in the future. One forest under Bure gives 45 hammers at least. One free catapult. If you decide to continue from your own save, do not raze barb city. Not the best location, but wasting hammers on settlers might not be the best move. Utrecht seems to be well-situated. Only consideration is small defensive bonus. Ungy's location was safer. Anyway strong position - you have bunch of axes and 3 cities now. IW almost known.

Giaur: It's difficult to criticize my own game, despite it went wrong. I teched in bad order, I think. I was forced to build barracks instead of granary f.e. Another mistake was to to whip first settler. There were many minor mistakes f.e. I could not improve pigs, because I lacked of AH or researching Sailing. Now I know, that civ who possess religion must be connected to me. I do not have to be connected to it.

Shyuhe: You are on a good way to get Alpha first, but small use of that when you risk losing some good city spots. I think you cottage little too early. Good diplo situation - buddism rules.

Ungy: I liked your save most so not much to criticize. Do not fogbust sea plots, move warrior onto the hill. I wonder who razed such a nice city. The fact that continent is divided by different religions means nothing, I think. I was dowed by Charlemagne, who was buddist too.

 

[Snaaty]

Hey Snaaty, thanks. Nice to be able to compare my game to someone who actually beats deity regularly

Umh... ...yeah... ...see spoiler...

Spoiler :

Tried to play on a little with my save, captured 2 barb cities, founded another city, had 6 axes, traded aest for alpha + math, leaving me with 6 cities, 3 more possible in backlands and a very stong position... ...then Sitting Bull dropped by around 500 BC... ...with something like 20 dog soldiers... ...game over for me (this was a quick one)

EDIT:

@ Giaur:

Spoiler :

The second city was designed to be my troop factory, because of high producition, so no whipping and slow growing was my plan

Third city isn´t next to river, because I wanted to have a closed cultural border and didn´t dare to settle nearer to sitting bull... ...which I could have done, because he attacked me anyways

 

[CellKu]

Snaaty, great you joined! You are just in time, so no need to play a shadow game! The more people play, the more discussion we have, and thus the better!!
About your game: I like your placement of The Hague! Unfortunately in my game I could not settle there due to a barb city on the desert tile. Location of Utrecht is also quite nice - blocking Sitting Bull. However, do you think you can get the gems up north? Impressive, you did not chop as much as I did, and you have three cities and a nice army! I will have a look at the improvements you built around your capital.
Too bad that Sitting Bull ran over you. I hope you will not quit, but try again!

Giaur, thanks for your comments. You are absolutely right about the forests. Actually, in the Zara-game of yours I saved much more, thus being able to get the GLib. Here that would have been impossible because of the detour to IW. So I burned them on settlers and axes. Although you are right with regard to the value of the forest, keep in mind that a city that is settled earlier can grow more, thus building more units in the long run. Moreover, I don't think I will do an early war. I am on 0.5 strength to Pacal and Sitting Bull. And both are Hindu. Don't know about Charles.
And thanks about your advice on the barb city. I followed it and it went quite nicely... I will post my 1 AD soon.

CellKu

 

[CellKu]

Okay, I couldn't help it and already continued up to 1 AD:

Spoiler :

That was one of the most sweating turns ever!!!

First, ungy was right: The GLib was of no interest. It was already built in 850 BC!!!!

Now to the game:


Cities: All borders are closed now.

First, I took the first barb city (Mycenian), then I rushed a settler up north to settle Rotterdam. And just before I arrived there - really that was just one or two turns!!! -, Sitting Bull was closing in with a settler!!! Uff! But I was there first! HOWEVER, Instead of being pushed back (we did not have open borders!), Siting Bull's settler came out on MY side and started to wander behind my lines. AAARG!!!! Thus, I rushed to take over the second barb city - Phrygien. No way that I would destroy it, so that Sitting Bull could settle there!! So, I took it. That was just in time, before Pacal could take it with his Holkans and whatnot (with him I had OB). Then I rushed a settler to settle for Njimwegen to block Sitting Bull from wandering down south. I wanted that horse-silver-crab/clam spot for myself and to keep him from settling anywhere around there! Well it worked and he left through the tiny corridor that was left at that time between Utrecht and Mycenian.
Somewhen in between, I also saw Pacal advancing in the south with a settler. Fortunately, I had a settler ready (for the great silver-etc. spot). So
I moved him down south to settle Maastricht.

Techs:
After my research plummeted badly due to my huge empire-building, I recovered quite well when I had the gems hooked up. Moreover, I found silver close to Amsterdam! I was the first to aesthetics and traded that for alphabet and math (to Pacal and Charles). Then researched a bit into currency and then traded alphabet for currency to Charles. Then went for sailing and calender to get the remaining resources hooked up.

Now, I want to get to Lit. to build the NE in Amsterdam to increase my GS output. Then I will go for CoL. (I changed my mind after taking the screenshot.) Unfortunately, Charles and Pacal both have CoL already, so that I cannot use it for trading. Sitting Bull has nothing to offer that would be tempting for me.


Religion:
Pacal did quite a good job spreading Hinduism everywhere. It's in almost all of my cities. Thus, I am thinking of converting. However, Charles is Buddhist and I am really afraid that he will get angry with me...


Miscellaneous:
I increased my defense with axemen everywhere. Built some workers to improve the land and built libraries, barracks and some granaries. Unfortunately, my library in Utrecht was destroyed by flooding, so I had to start there all over again.

Sitting Bull demanded gems, so I gave it to him. After 10 turns I stopped that "trade" and negotiated to get dye from him - that worked out fine.

Here is the map of 1 AD

Spoiler :

And the save:

 

[CellKu]

Betruger: thanks for your comments as well. Actually, The Hague is doing quite well. I just have to balance farms and cottages. A hill and the forests help a bit with production. I will wait for the dike...

CellKu

 

[Giaur]

@CellKu:

Spoiler :

Looks like a great start for domination win. Pacal knows Engineering. I forgot to check if he has sth on his hands, but I doubt. Bull and Charlemagne are not a threat now - they have nothing on their hands. Impressive is the amount of cities with place for one more. That barb city indeed helped you. For now that's enough. There will be time for questions and comments later. I hope the other players will have so much luck too

 

[CellKu]

Giaur, thanks for your comments.

Spoiler :

I must admit that barb city turned out to be of great help! The AIs expanded rediculously fast and otherwise I would probably not have had a chance to secure all spots. Now, I have one more spot (the juicy silver-horse-crab/clam spot) to settle and then I am done with settlements...
What I learned, though, is that having a settler on "stand-by" can be of great help (if you are already on the brink of a financial collapse you don't settle him immediately, but wait until the AI settler advances and settle him then asap).

CellKu