Deity trashsystem game ...

@Shyuhe: I am not sure if continuing from any save is the best idea. But I am a supporter of liberal rules. So we may continue from any save even, your own one.

@CellKu: Report would be nice, but there are no tight rules. F.e I did not attach any comments, because of RL issues. Besides this was a really short turnset - not much to tell.
 
I think it'd be a good idea to choose the best save, and then everyone can either continue their save, or play the best one.

Btw. I couldn't resist, so I started a singleplayer game with similar settings, and just scored my first deity win ever :) So in fact it is possible to win, though much luck is required.
 
Congratulations, Betruger! Which goal did you pursue? Did you attack any civs? If so, when?

With regard to playing which save: I think it would be nice if all play the voted game and if someone wants he can also play his own (or any other). In that case it would be great if a report about both games could be posted (in a little spoiler-update). That way we could see how things turn out in the long run with the different starting strategy.

Well, just a thought (skip it if you think playing the same game twice simultaneously is boring).

CellKu
 
Thanks, I was on the bigger continent with 4 civs, the other one had 2. I killed every civ on my continent and was lucky because Justinian, who dominated the other continent went for cultural victory instead of usual space. He probably would have beaten me to space if he chose so.
First civ I attacked about 1250AD with rifles, then I waited till tanks to attack the other civ. Finally I mopped it up with modern armor.

Generally I followed the strategy described by Snaaty, i.e. beelining to great lib, lightbulbing philo, education and liberalism (nationalism as freebe), then generating great merchant during golden age and using cashbomb to upgrade about 15 city raider 2 maces to rifles. And drafting each city twice too.

If you are interested I'll produce a mini report based on my saves, but I haven't taken any notes during my play so it wouldn't be very precise.
 
Ok, continue from desired save. Only one set of votes came. We will choose winner later.

Attach your 1AD save.

edit: of course keep sending votes to me ...
 
Ok, continue from desired save. Only one set of votes came. We will choose winner later.

Attach your 1AD save.
Perhaps, we should not view it as a "winner/loser"-competition... more like a numerical evaluation of the various games. Maybe that way people feel more comfortable about voting.

Moreover, what makes voting now a bit difficult is that you cannot really say whether a certain move was good or bad until you won or at least achieved a certain goal mid-game.

Maybe we should formulate certain goals that we want to achieve on our path to victory. What do you think?

If you are interested, here are my goals for the first two turnsets:
Spoiler :

1.) Land-grabbing:
a.) Get as much good terrain as possible.
b.) Don't go broke when doing this.
2.) Get the necessary techs to improve your land.
3.) Tech as quickly as possible to Lit to be able to build the GLib
4..) Keep your power high enough to not get attacked.


CellKu
 
If you are interested I'll produce a mini report based on my saves, but I haven't taken any notes during my play so it wouldn't be very precise.

That would be nice - if it is in spoilers I don't think people will get angry aout this, after all this thread is about learning how to manage deity (so it's not highjacking the thread).
Perhaps you could emphasize what you aimed for and achieved during the game, e.g. Great Wonders, Liberalism etc. And, if possible, it would be great if you could provide a screenshot of you initial land-grab - just to see how much land is needed to win...

CellKu
 
I would prefer to have maximum discussion about everyone's game--I know I make lots of mistakes and am happy for people to point them out. Many of them I see when I step away from my game for a bit and think about strategy. I'm trying to learn here and for me the more discussion the better.

I also don't think it is a "winning and losing" issue with the votes--I would hope we could have honest discussions about what we see as positive and negative in other peoples' games. I hope others feel the same way.

I'll post tonight a detailed writeup of how I see my game and also my thoughts on other games.

By the way, I erred and played my first set without Bhuiric's patch. I've done a lot of comp switching recently. I have since installed the patch. Do you guys know if the patch will work with a save that started without it? I had another game which was ruined by the culture bug on 3.13 which got me to notice. If not, then whatever people think about the position I would recommend taking another save.
 
All right. Here's my deity game report, it's a bit image heavy, but a picture is worth thousand words right? ;)
Spoiler :

My first save was after the initial land grab phase, and that's when my first screenshot comes from.
first_screen0000.JPG

As you can see I managed to expand peacfully to 4 cities. Later I'll also take those 2 barbarian cities and manage to sneak in one more city down south at the Khmer border. So that's 7 cities total. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

My initial research started with AH, and seeing that I have horses nearby I skipped archery. Utrecht (by the horses) was my first city, acting as a pure commerce generator. It also had gems, so I made Iron Working a priority.
I think Rotterdam was next, blocking off Ceasar, but unfortunately it would loose that wheat to Rome, so was a little food poor. For now it served as a hybrid city, generating some commerce but also building my first chariots.
The Hague was next, and it served only one purpose throughout the entire game - to build military.

I've got about 2 workers / city which enabled me to improve my land quickly.

Notice that thanks to amazing luck the whole continent follows one religion, which enabled me to get a state religion boosting relations with everyone, and also use religion civics without actually pissing off anyone.

Here's a look at the capital at this time
750BC_-_Capital0000.JPG

Here, after producing enoguh settlers and workers I let it grow to the happy limit. As soon as that library finishes I'll hire 2 scientists to build an early academy.
Notice the unimproved stone. I simply didn't have time to detour to get masonry. Another thing to notice is that every, and I mean every, tile in the BFC is a river tile. So later on Dike (dutch unique replacement of Leeve) would net me additional 20 hammers!

25 BC
Let's jump ahead.
Here's the capital just after completing Great Library in 25BC.
25BC_Capital0001.JPG

Starting on national epic immiedately, I'll need those great scientists to be first to liberalism. Academy is already built, and the next scientist will lightbulb philosophy, then we'll change civics to pacifism to generate yet more scientists. I'm running hereditary rule / slavery combo now.
Thanks to good relations with everyone I was able to trade aesthetics around pretty much to everybody without worrying about "you traded with our worst enemies" thing. Don't remember extacly, but I'm sure I got mathematics, monarchy and alphabet from those trades.

At this time my military city finished Maoi Statues and started on heroic epic (thanks to experience from barb fighting I was able to build it already).
25BC_heroic_epic_city0000.JPG

After it completes, this city will do nothing more than produce military till the end of game (with occasional break to build some health or happy buildings)
For now I was letting it grow, working mostly water tiles and farms, that way it'll have more production power later, when war comes.

And a shot of my empire at this time
25BC_empire0000.JPG


The plan for now is to befriend everyone, not get declared on and get to civil service (beaurocracy!) ASAP.

That plan failed miserably :)
In 150 AD Sitting Bull declares war on me. I'm totally unprepared, but luckily I have lots of axeman/spearmen on military police duty (hereditary rule, remember). Also, he doesn't go for my capital, but for Rotterdam, which was on a hill and was not such an important city, so I could whip it hard. Thank goodness he didn't have maces yet.
I managed to hold my ground until 325 AD when I discovered Civil Service. That allowed me to bribe Ceasar into war, and boy did that work or what!
He immiedately show with a huge stack of knights and preatorians (soon to be macemen) and saved the day.
He arrived with this huge stack at Snaketown, Bull's city on my border but since Bull is protective and has Totem Poles, Ceasar had hard time cracking this city (Bull had CGIII longbows everywhere).
And I thought, what the hell, let's take my army and try to capture that city after Ceasar weakens it.
And it worked!
580AD_city_luckily_captured0000.JPG


At this point I just kept all my troops in that city utill I could sue for peace. Bull had really hard time defending his other city from Rome, so he wasn't a threat really.
The great side of this war was that Ceasar actually became friendly. This is huge. I don't have to worry about him backstabbing me. I could put all my troops down south on the Khmer border.

Notice on that screenshot above, that I'm about to discover Education (thanks to lightbulbing) and that I'm about 4 turns away from Liberalism (next scientist will lightbulb it)
If you don't trade for machinery, a scientist will not have an option of lightbulbung optics, and goes for liberalism instead. This is useful to know.

1050 AD War preparations.
Time to repay Bull for his kindness and grab more land at the same time. It's time for war!
1050AD_empire0000.JPG

8 turns to rifling, Hague pumps out 1 maceman per turn and send it to a nearby hill. (btw that's another useful thing to know - you can shift click on a tile to create a rally point, so that every unit produced in that city will automatically go there).

Earlier on, I used my Taj Mahal golden age to generate a great merchant (slipping into caste system, and setting maximum number of merchants in capital, even starving it a bit). He awaits here till his time comes.
1050AD_Great_Merchant0000.JPG


I also sold a tech for cash whenever there was such possibilty, and deity AIs have lot of cash on their hand often.

All in all when the time came I was able to mass upgrade almost 20 maces to rifles, and they all had city raider II.
Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


At this time I was running nationhood, dratfing each of my cities (except capital) twice, which, with support of Hague building 1 rifle per 1,5 turn, gave me another stack of rifles.
1280_AD_BullWar_30000.JPG


My main attacking force:
1280AD_Bull_war0000.JPG


I was capturing cities quickly, loosing about 1 city raider II rifle for every 3 longbowmen killed, even without bombarding down city defences.
Before declaring I bribed Ceasar to attack Hammurabi, so that he won't pile on Bull. I wanted all this land for myself. Which worked fine, but it lead to futue Rome vs Babylon wars, which resulted in capturing Babylon by Julius and vassalizing Hammurabi. But again, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Around this time I also met the other continent, Justinian and Pacal. It turned out they had religious differences and fought quite often. Not so much later Justinian will win the war and vassalize Pacal. Here's the tech situation now, Justinian is not so advanced, but later he'll become a monster.
1280AD_tech_situation0000.JPG


Back to war. I won :p
Here's my empie just afterwards.
1410AD_After_Bull_war0000.JPG


Will that be enough land to win?
I dont think so. Other AIs, especially Ceasar and Justinian are teching very quickly. Take a look.
1410_AD_tech_situation0000.JPG


I had to grab more land, and Khmer was my next logical target. They had the best land.

Let's take a glance at my capital at this time.
1410_Capital0000.JPG


After building Dike it became both production and commerce powerhouse. But I switched from beaurocracy to free speech anyway, because I had quite large empire now with lots of cottages, also I was being culturally pressed by Rome in my newly acquired lands. Also I switched to universal sufferage, emancipation, free market and free religon now.
Adopting free religion was an error though, because I lost the diplo bonus with Ceasar, who was now only pleased, and therefore I couldn't trade techs with him (the dreaded WFYABTA limit). Later on I realized my error and switched back to org. religion.

If you take a look on that screenshot showing my empire, you'll notice that Ceasar started a was vs Khmer during my war with Bull, and managed to capture one city which allowed me to immiedately plant 2 more cities on the Khmer border.
The war ended soon after that, thanks to AP resolution.Ceasar built the confucian AP but Khmer were "secretary general" now and proposed to end the war)
Of course I voted for the war to end, I wanted all these Khmer lands for myself. :D Khmer converted to christianism soon after, making me elligible to be leader of the AP, but I never managed to get more votes than Ceasar, and kept voting for him to boost realtions further.

To be continued...
Stay tuned for Khmer wars
Here's the save from 1410 AD if you're interested
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/131446/Raf_AD-1410.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
I believe it's no difference if save is to be opened under Bhruic patch or not.

Save game with no patch. Open game with Bhruic patch. Save game. And compare size (and if you can content) of those two files. If they differ then perhaps I am wrong ...
 
@Ungy, save should work just fine with Bhuric's patch.
Later today I'll also try to write my thoughts on the games played so far.
 
I would prefer to have maximum discussion about everyone's game--I know I make lots of mistakes and am happy for people to point them out. Many of them I see when I step away from my game for a bit and think about strategy. I'm trying to learn here and for me the more discussion the better.

I also don't think it is a "winning and losing" issue with the votes--I would hope we could have honest discussions about what we see as positive and negative in other peoples' games. I hope others feel the same way.

I totally support that! I will post some thoughts about my game and then I will write down some comments about the other games (I will need some time for the latter, as I will have to leave in a few minutes).

Here are a few thoughts about my game:
Spoiler :

I am thinking about whether it might have been wiser to research writing before IW. Thus, I would have been able to build libraries earlier. On the other hand, I would not have been able to build a library in my capital, because churning out settlers, axemen and workers took and still takes its time.

And: I plan to quickly sent a worker to Utrecht, as soon as I have finished (chopped) the one in The Hague. So, either way, I had to research IW at some point before Lit. And since I have to level my financial budget because of Utrecht being really far off, I need to get the gems hooked up ASAP. So I see it as a balancing matter of land grabbing and the GLib.

A potential criticism about my game could be the excessive deforestation around the capital. There is not much left to use for the GLib. If it is not built way before I could have it, then it might have been better to save some forests - unless I get it anyway... On the other hand, with all the barbs in my game, I needed a viable defense force. Moreover, I felt that land grabbing was imperative - especially with a expansive civ as the Mayans, so I sacrificed some forests for the settlers. As I told you in my last report, the one for The Hague was just in time, as Pacal was advancing with a settler. And Sitting Bull's settlers (up north) are running around as well. So, eventually they would have settled in the gems spot. So being to slow would probably have killed my plans with regard to the gems.
Finally, with Snaaty's comments about getting backstapped by other civs if you are too weak and don't have baracks in your city I was rather weary not to be too weak regarding the powerlevel.

If I get the Great Library, then knocking down all these valuable forests was okay, otherwise I will have to adjust next time.

One concern that I have right now is whether I should have put the hammers for one axeman into a settler to get him earlier for blocking.


CellKu
 
I've just thought about making an open game. The only variant is simple:

You have to use advisor's only. (con. science advisor and production advisor)

I wonder if it is playable on Immortal.

Perhaps automating workers would do too ...

edit: another option is not too use micromanaging - only emphasize buttons.
 
Betruger, thanks for your great report (finally had time to read it)! Impressive! And the screenshot are great - to see how much land you gathered and how many buildings you were able to build. You managed to tech really well! It seems that good diplo had a major point effect (bribing Caesar, selling techs). The tech exchange is something I have to work on myself - so interesting to hear about your experiences!
I am eager to read about the remainder of your game... :)

CellKu
 
I've just thought about making an open game. The only variant is simple:

You have to use advisor's only. (con. science advisor and production advisor)

I wonder if it is playable on Immortal.

Perhaps automating workers would do too ...

edit: another option is not too use micromanaging - only emphasize buttons.
my guess is you'd need a lot of luck in a normal game--maybe impossible.
I see the advisors recommending horrible builds and immortal is not that forgiving IMHO--I still probably lose half my games or so. The effect of early bad builds and techs is compounded and could really put you hopelessly behind. I'd try it on emp first with a good leader--not at all sure that would win.
 
OK some thoughts on my game
Spoiler :
Overall I think expansion has been pretty good. I don't like my builds tho. I figured I needed to grow a bit so I started gran in all 3 cities--that was an error. Gran is good in capital--plan is to build it then change tiles to high food and lib while growing then another settler. However, I have urgent need for other things so builds in other cities should be changed. I think an axe in the Hague to send up N and a lib in Utrecht to get the culture going then workers once we've grown.
Research wise my thought was sailing first then IW. I now think better to just hurry to IW. Top priority is settle to the N and claim a bananas/gems city. Then settle the sheep area to the SE. By then my culture should have closed on the horse.
Major expansion risks: recently razed barb city opens a hole for the AI to come in for the horse. Also barb city on N coast is on hill--precludes me from taking it but could enable a sneak in after AI weakens barbs.
Barbs seem under control but I could use more scouting.
Overall pretty good prospects I think for 6-8 good cities.
 
My thoughts on other games:
Betruger save
Spoiler :
expansion is good, city 3 can most likely get built (I like the E site). Tech path to IW was I think better than mine to writing. Capital grown to 5 is good. Bad: looks like Utrecht will have to double whip the axe--not too bad as workers are needed anyway and there are only 2 great tiles. Risks: we're in trouble if we don't beat the AI to the gems city.


Cellku save:
Spoiler :
settling on the wine leads to the strongest capital here IMHO. That is a big plus. Very aggressive settling--Utrecht claims a lot of prime land. Strong research--1 turn from IW but have gold.
Downside: badly placed barb city in the middle of things really gums up the works. Risk of barb attack at both Utrecht. Sitting bull stack headed somewhere--maybe the other barb city? It looks just right to leave an opportunity. Overall seems risky but deity seems like requires risk (and our trash system encourages it).


Giaur save:
Spoiler :
Guiar went archery and was punished when bronze was in the BFC. Tech pretty slow as a result. Giaur settled as I did on the plains hill which had some advantages but I think doesn't work as well as the wine. Pretty serious barb trouble--I think an improvement or two is lost. Utrecht claims good land but Pacal will take some land in the west and generally expansion is not great.


Shyuhe save:
Spoiler :
Shuyhe expansion is not good enough I think. Utrecht needed to be settled more boldly on deity. Aesthetics is a gamble--could get a bunch in trade or could really delay the all important IW. I would also say capital should have been developed differently--better to mine a hill like Cellku than cottage. Still I would say major risk of getting boxed in--if city 3 to the N is missed game is dead.
 
Cellku:
do you really think we have a chance at the Glib?
We have no marble, and I'm assuming we will expand aggressively (thus hampering research). We also have to research IW (which often can be skipped). Seems extremely unlikely to me.
 
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