Deity vs Immortal

[kovacsflo]

Why? You can rush-finish the parts (with overflow and chops) and techs (with GPeople and GAge) faster than AI, and having a trading partner throughout the game is much better than learning all by yourself - for fastest finish you would feed with prerequisistes a friendly "tech hamster" to trade with him later. However, it can't be altered for finish techs.

You haven't mention that you were speaking about SS victory (I myslef aimed a time vic). In that situation I agree with you, with the addition that SS victory became much harder since AI can reach a cultural victory about 1750-1800 AD (I don't know when in deity). I won't try an SS/deity game.

Flóri

 

[WastinTime]

Speaking of trading for late techs - bear in mind that AI will NEVER trade you a part-building tech - or, I believe, any tech after Computers/Rocketry/Fission (for the Warlords tech tree).

Not even Mansa?

 

[WastinTime]

You haven't mention that you were speaking about SS victory (I myslef aimed a time vic). In that situation I agree with you, with the addition that SS victory became much harder since AI can reach a cultural victory about 1750-1800 AD (I don't know when in deity). I won't try an SS/deity game.

Flóri

I tried one SS victory in BTS. Mansa and I partnered and got culture victory in 1550 AD. I guess you have to take Mansa out of the game if you want SS.

 

[Lexad]

Not even Mansa?

This comes first, AI don't trade victory techs.

 

[VirusMonster]

kovacsflo, don't underestimate the power of Julius Caesar. He got organized trait, increasing your manual research rate by roughly 25%, (data taken from my 500k game). He can build courthouses cheap; courthouses lead to imba espionage points. +2 per courthouse +4 per spy specialist * 3.00(espionage points to beakers conversion ratio)=18 beakers per 1 citizen... that many beakers is unbeatable up until much later in the game... And he is imperialistic, enabling you to chop your settlers much faster. Very important at deity difficulty for settling the best spots. He does not start with Hunting, thus he can worker steal faster.

You can capture the GreatWall. Get 3-4 Praet production cities up and then capture whatever you want. Don't try to build at Deity difficulty. Just capture whatever is closest. Reseach Writing before the initial praet rush, capture as much as you can, preferable Pyramids and/or Greatwall. Sign a peace treaty if you can get Alphabet and get some backfilling. At economic crash point, start working the cottages and assign 2 scientists everywhere. Then follow, the popular Aesthetics research path, chop a few wonders, bum you have a great start.

Follow my 500k guide (immortal difficulty), but I feel you should still be fine at Deity difficulty. There are many deity entries with Julius Caesar already.

 

[Harbourboy]

He does not start with Hunting, thus he can worker steal faster.

I don't understand that statement.l

 

[VirusMonster]

hunting gives you a scout at start, instead of a warrior.... scouts are almost useless at deity difficulty, because the AIs all start with 2 scouts and pop almost all huts on the map rather quickly....

The inital warrior, however, can steal you a worker

For deity, my top picks are: Julius Caesar and Suleiman.... just make sure you pick an Imperialistic leader and you will guarantee settling the best 2-3spots... that is most important I think... then you can rush your closes neighbour with Axes and Swords...

ps. all the HOF people should read my 500K article... esp the map settings and leader choice sections...

 

[FiveAces]

Confirm JC works well on deity. 2nd city went for copper, axe-rushed nearest AI for iron, rolled out praets, took whatever I wanted and razed/pillaged everything else. Too bad 'mids on the other side of a flat map, economy crashed afterwards but all AI killed/crippled by then. Recovering nicely now.

 

[VirusMonster]

Five Aces, that sounds to me as one of the worst starts you can have at deity, yet you still managed to recover... Usually the initial 2-3 cities should have iron around, and Pyramids should not be that far away

 

[Thrar]

Sounds like the difference between adaptable play and build orders.
Many people would restart without iron, so good job for sticking to it and making it work, FiveAces!

 

[FiveAces]

Tiny Great Plains is mostly the reason. From previous (failed) attempt knew AI would fill in before I could get a third settler out (vanilla, so no prod bonus) and I wouldn't have IW then anyway, so went immediately for copper and built 4 axes. By then I had IW and Asoka had the nearest source already hooked up, took it (ony needed 3 axes), built barracks and a couple more axes until it came out of anarchy, then praets. Then took out Asoka, leaving Ghandi on the mountain side (I started in the east for forest chops and later high pop for Time victory) to finish the pyramids. He just happened to build them in a city 2 squares from the western edge instead of his capital (which had the parthenon) so I had to keep both. Economy crashed and I eventually lost most of my praets and half my workers, but by then Ghandi only had 1 city on a terrible site left so I'm there (I think), even though it's 80BC and I don't even have CoL yet .

One mistake (so far) - kept one of Asoka's bad cities to prevent resettling, later gifted it to Ghandi and retook it, forgetting I couldn't raze it since it had too much of my own culture. So slaved it to size 1, and let him take it again, but since he had already built some culture in it (stupid religion), I guess it didn't auto-raze and he could keep it even though it was a size 1? Is that how it works? If I had just slaved it down and let him take it at size 1 the first time, would it have auto-razed?

 

[Thrallia]

yeah, if you already have culture in a city, then no matter what size it is, you can't raze it upon retaking it.

 

[kovacsflo]

I prefer immortals than praets, since immortals much cheaper and comes earlier. Yes, immortals are not so strong, but they can be used to a quick improvement havoc. And I don't like that none of the Roman leaders have fin. Organized is useful in deity I agree, but Darius has it as well.

 

[VirusMonster]

Darius is a strong leader for Deity... I totally agree with you there.... I like him too, but I think you put too much emphasis on financial... The alternatives are Organized and Philosophical, both are strong traits for speeding up your research.

I suggest you reread my immortal domination article, if you haven't read yet, because in it, I compare financial vs. organized at 1000BC, 500BC,1AD, 500AD, and 1000AD. I compare how much of the total population is required to work on 2 or more commerce generating tiles to compensate for the Organized effect. Roughly speaking 40% of the total population must work on 2 or more commerce generating tiles to compensate the effects of the Organized. And while trying to grow to the happiness cap fastest and while still using poprushing to build infrastructure to most cities, you rarely get the chance to work many cottage tiles in the early-mid game. Organized was preventing a drop of around 25% total research at 500AD for example.... That is good enough of a research boost for a trait, imho.

And the conclusion I reach is that financial only starts getting better than organized after 1000AD. Well, if you want to earliest possible domination, it is natural to shutdown research by 1000AD, so you will never see Financial being actually better than Organized.

 

[kovacsflo]

Darius is a strong leader for Deity... I totally agree with you there.... I like him too, but I think you put too much emphasis on financial... The alternatives are Organized and Philosophical, both are strong traits for speeding up your research.

I suggest you reread my immortal domination article, if you haven't read yet, because in it, I compare financial vs. organized at 1000BC, 500BC,1AD, 500AD, and 1000AD. I compare how much of the total population is required to work on 2 or more commerce generating tiles to compensate for the Organized effect. Roughly speaking 40% of the total population must work on 2 or more commerce generating tiles to compensate the effects of the Organized. And while trying to grow to the happiness cap fastest and while still using poprushing to build infrastructure to most cities, you rarely get the chance to work many cottage tiles in the early-mid game. Organized was preventing a drop of around 25% total research at 500AD for example.... That is good enough of a research boost for a trait, imho.

And the conclusion I reach is that financial only starts getting better than organized after 1000AD. Well, if you want to earliest possible domination, it is natural to shutdown research by 1000AD, so you will never see Financial being actually better than Organized.

I agree with you at the main point: usefullness of fin is stronger at the early/middle game, while organized becomes useful later: courthouses are expensive buildings without an org leader. Also later factory building bonus gives an advantage.

Sorry, I haven't read your article yet, since at weekdays I have internet just at my workplace. I will read it when I can.

I had to realize that a time victory in deity only possible in smaller lands. Now I get some experience in emperor/large/time. It's still not easy to me either. But it was funny that I killed the first 9 AI archers with just 1 lost immortals (I was lucky) I aim time since I have just 1 time victory on duel/deity, so I need it for my EQM machiavelli.

 

[VirusMonster]

I think what you are trying to say is the opposite fin is stronger late game, organized is stronger early game....

ok winning time victory at deity is difficult, I agree... there are so many ways for the AI to win....

 

[kovacsflo]

I think what you are trying to say is the opposite fin is stronger late game, organized is stronger early game....

ok winning time victory at deity is difficult, I agree... there are so many ways for the AI to win....

My English is not perfect, but in this situation I wrote what I think.

Advantages of fin appears early with the cottages (sometimes earlier if having tiles with 2 base commerce), but organized only useful when you can and it's worthy to build courthouses.

 

[VirusMonster]

alright, so I misunderstood you... you made no mistake in writing financial being better than organized in early game....

well.... If your praetorian rush is successful and/or if you want to make your initial Praetorian rush a big success, then you will poprush extensively and not work many cottages early game. Then, when your rush is successful, you will acquire so many new health and happiness resources that your cities will be busy growing to the happiness cap and not work the cottages. Next, you will want to poprush for infrastructure: granaries, libraries and courthouses. Again, you will want to work the farms and not the cottages for fastest growth to the happiness cap. And once you build all your infrastructure, you will want to poprush again for a bigger army... etc....

I hope you see my point. Financial is great, but Organized does not require your citizens to work on cottages only.

Here are some paragraphs from my article... In my opinion, Financial breaks even with Organized in the early game and only starts getting better much later toward Liberalism.

Discussion on Food economy and Cottage Economy

 

[kovacsflo]

alright, so I misunderstood you... you made no mistake in writing financial being better than organized in early game....

well.... If your praetorian rush is successful and/or if you want to make your initial Praetorian rush a big success, then you will poprush extensively and not work many cottages early game. Then, when your rush is successful, you will acquire so many new health and happiness resources that your cities will be busy growing to the happiness cap and not work the cottages. Next, you will want to poprush for infrastructure: granaries, libraries and courthouses. Again, you will want to work the farms and not the cottages for fastest growth to the happiness cap. And once you build all your infrastructure, you will want to poprush again for a bigger army... etc....

I hope you see my point. Financial is great, but Organized does not require your citizens to work on cottages only.

Here are some paragraphs from my article... In my opinion, Financial breaks even with Organized in the early game and only starts getting better much later toward Liberalism.

Discussion on Food economy and Cottage Economy

But if we compare Darius (fin/org) to a roman leader, we should compare fin to imp or creative AND immortals to praets. I'm sure fin is much better than imp or cre. Immortals is weaker than praets of course, but they have some advantages: since horse revealed by an husbandry it makes possible to plan your settling. Also immortals are fast, you can destroy improvements with them quickly, that's the way I worked with them with my current emp/large/time game:

At first destroying AI's bronze and iron. Collecting immortals, scouting which city is defended lightly and go beetwen there and an other AI city. Archers commonly try to go from one city to another and you can destroy them then more easily. If you see that your immortals can't conquer more cities, destroy everything you can before a treaty. This maneuvering tactic makes immortals useful and FUN

I started my game at the beginning of this week. Now the time is 1750 AD and since on next week i'm on holiday, I only can finish it at 2 weeks later. So, it will be my record: 3 weeks for one game

 

[FiveAces]

Well brain lock turned a promising Time attempt into a 1250AD Dom win The praets work though. The problem I see with Darius is the immortals only upgrade to horse archers (6, and they lose the +25%), which means once the AI gets longbows you have to pause to build better units to continue keeping them under your thumb. With JC a couple CR3 praets are good until they can be upgraded to gerandiers. And yes in Time the AI will get longbows - you can't stay at war forever because of WW.