Deitymania #3: Justinian I

[Lain]

Welcome to Deitymania #3.

I am playing randomly rolled Deity games on following settings:

Deity
Fractal
No Huts / No Events
Standard size and speed

My goal is to play slowly and mindfully, to improve as a player and to help others with my experiences. There will be uncensored success and failure, which I both believe to be important for development .

Criticism and feedback are very welcome, no matter what difficulty you play on yourself. Never wrong to bounce some ideas.

You are very welcome to shadow my games, just please make sure to post in spoiler and to not give away any information. I am not checking for isolation or anything else, so for all I know, we might end up in isolation with Charlemagne.

This time we are playing as Justinian I., which happens to be my favorite leader. Why? I like both spiritual and imperialistic, although the latter doesn't get very much love. Hippodrome is fun and who knows, maybe I will go full cataphract mode. But mainly I like the colors of his borders

Starting position:

Spoiler :

Move settler up north and see what happens? Anything is better than this, right?

I didn't play any turns yet or move the warrior myself.

Update soon .

 

[RedKi-rr]

Hm...what about settling on Sugar? Is it worth it?)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I have settled on dry rice before and sugar too. It is really nice to get 3 Fpt from the city center. Bonus food, hammers or commerce from the city center is really great!

 

[Lain]

I would definitely settle on the sugar normally, but staying on the coast seems a bit iffy. If I was really to go cataphracts, I would want to stay away from any fishing ressources for bulbing reasons. In any case, coast with Justinian is not a dream scenario either way.

Seems to be a river in the north, though. I am inclined to settle 2N, hoping not to run into too much jungle.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Would oracling Feudalism make sense in a beeline to Guilds to spam Cataphracts? A great engineer could bulb most of Machinery. The Pyramids could be the source of great engineer points. It would be hard to squeeze in Metal Casting and a Forge to work a single engineer to generate the GE.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Ok, avoiding Fishing and generating a GS to bulb Machinery will definitely be easier.

 

[Lain]

I don't have much experience with that bulb path, but the gist seems to be avoiding Fishing to make use of Great Scientists on that line. Machinery and Engineering could be bulbed then? Mathematics is needed and otherwise the Great Scientists would bulb Sailing, Calendar, Compass, Optics and Astro, which we don't want in a scenario like that...

But it's very early to think about that. I am still on Turn 0. New information after moving my units is giving me a slight headache.

After moving warrior:

Spoiler :

Not exactly inspiring. Coast and jungle so far. I'm grateful for the wet corn at least.

Then I moved one tile with the settler, keeping all options open.

Spoiler :

SIP is no option for me, so I moved here...



Sugar could still be settled next turn. Both sugars, actually. Or 1N to get river access and farm the sugar early.

Or 1NW for the grassland hill which could be mined early. Agriculture->Mining would be reasonable then. Leaning towards 1N.

BUT the grassland tile 1W of my starting position looks suspicious. If it is copper, I won't have early access to it by settling 1N. Not easy. If possible, I would like to avoid running into unhealthiness at size 2 aswell with all the potential jungle in the BFC.

Not so trivial. Usually I don't struggle so much with settling decisions, but here I kind of do. Kind of scared of the upcoming barbs already.

 

[Rusten]

My first instinct would be to go 1NW of current position. Greater chance of finding a significant early resource (or maintaining starting bronze/horse in BFC). The sugar is ok, but it's not that much better than a mined grassland hill early on (due to happy cap). Here you even have river hills. Furthermore the hills benefit from IMP while the sugar does not, unless you whip -- so I'd be inclined to say that the sugar is worse if you have the required worker turns.

This is one of those starts where the original spot does not have fresh water. Those are fishy. I can't quite remember what I found out about those. Maybe the the tile 1N of the corn is a hidden resource. I seem to remember something about the settler somehow being "bumped" or similar (to not settle on top of a resource).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

To do the Great Scientist Machinery and Engineering bulbs, one must avoid Fishing and research/steal/trade for Mathematics, Alphabet, and Aesthetics. I believe that would be sufficient.

One possible way to achieve this is oracle Metal Casting and trade it for Aesthetics, Mathematics and Alphabet. Mathematics and especially Aesthetics can be hard to trade from the AI, since they prioritize neither of these technologies early.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Both the plot 1-N and 2-W of corn could be Horse/Copper/Iron or a later era strategic resource.

I agree with Rusten that 1-NW from the Settler's current position looks best. It keeps both potential hidden resource plots in the BFC and the rivers and riverside hills will be of significant benefit as Rusten detailed above.

 

[Lain]

First few turns played

Spoiler :

I decided to settle 1NW as suggested, that makes quite some sense.



Settling reveals this. Missed out on cow which I couldn't have known about. Let's hope one of the suspicious BFC tiles reveals copper. Interesting capital in any case. Nice production with 5x grassland hill, but also a great bureau capital if cottaged. Which I will do for sure.



Turn 1 demographics doesn't tell me a whole lot, but no Mansa or Hammurabi are in the game. With the land area distribution being like it is, I could see this being a pangaea type landmass with me somewhere in the middle of all the action. Great prospects.



First, my warrior reveals just a whole bunch of jungle...



... but eventually reports about more interesting land composition. Connected by the long river my capital is settled upon. I certainly would like to settle between the gold and ivory. Just hoping that there is no jungle spread on the gold, rendering it completely useless.



Turn 6 I meet Ghandi. For some reason I barely see him in my games, but I don't mind him at all obviously. Turn 6 is not too early, I should be able to settle across the river as intended.



On Turn 11 I meet some more... conventional folk in Shaka and Kublai. Both seemed to appear in the jungle to my west, making me wonder what kind of treasures might await me in the east.





And this is the current position. My warrior revealed some floodplains and will now sit and fogbust. I would love to explore some more, but I don't want to lose my guy and he will prevent barb cities from spawning. And just generally preventing barbs from spawning in the vicinity of what should be my 2nd city site.



Agriculture just came in, which is why I saved. Mining next for the grassland hill? Also for the gold. Going for Bronze Working next is cutting it fairly close with the barbs. I might almost head straight for archery after mining.

Bronze Working won't come earlier than Turn ~30. If I have copper in my BFC, that's great, but if not, I am kind of screwed not having researched even Hunting yet.

Fogbusting is all well and nice, but with the jungle I would need about 5 warriors to set up a fogbust network and my faith in non-AGG warriors against barb archers is fairly low.

Generally it is said that taking a stab at Horses OR Copper is fine, but I wonder if just playing it safe with archery first might be better. I could protect my gold mine and catch up on the time I lost. Early Bronze Working is nice, but I need to protect my settlements reliably.

What'd you say? Straight for Archery or not?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I would go Mining -> Bronze Working (two very useful technologies) or Animal Husbandry. I prefer taking a risk to the safe Hunting -> Archery path. Masonry -> building The Great Wall is another solution to the Barbarian problem (Maybe Mining -> BW -> Masonry and prechopped GW).

If I were playing, Mining -> Bronze Working would be my top choice at this point in the game. Animal Husbandry is good only if Horse is in the BFC or nearby; one could immediate build Chariots with Horse connection. Both Mining and Bronze Working are essential worker technologies, so I would proceed in that direction.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Justinian I starting with Mysticism gives some unusual strategic options, such as trying Polytheism for an early religion or Masonry to build The Great Wall early. Both options cause serious delays in one's REX, but they can be interesting diversions when they work. I believe there is an excellent change of getting Polytheism. Getting The Great Wall is a sure thing, maybe even if one pauses it long enough to complete a settler.

 

[Fippy]

Something i wanted to say for a looong time..
river tile counting, like 6 or 7 or 8 feels so really overrated (and often also harmful) to me in Deity games (those games with difficult starts, yup like this one i think )
Those are usually decided before getting 1 more commerce from these tiles (compared with normal green) comes into play.

Gambling on hidden resis? okay.
But losing 1 turn moving, then 1 turn later improved corn stuff like that i will never do for some river tiles.

 

[Lain]

Agree with you, Fippy . Generally I don't spend that much time on settling decision anyway. I remember discussions over 5 pages in games I read long ago. With tile counting and all. But I think settling where I did was good, no? Shame about the cows though.

So before I continue playing next turns... would anyone go straight for Archery after Mining? If I go Bronze and fail to find copper, I won't have barb defense until Turn 40+. And warrior fogbusting with so much jungle... Even though I agree with you on the value of Bronze Working, Sun Tzu Wu, I'm somewhat afraid of an early capitulation to the barbs. Would be a rather sad turn of events for this series

 

[Fippy]

Hmmmmm
3 AIs by turn 12 is not bad and probably means some are close, then again you miss early prod for warriors.
Would probably try BW, but that also depends on playstyle..deity barbs can be a whole new game in the game ~~
Mostly i would think that Archers are also painful to produce without BW here.

 

[sampsa]

This time we are playing as Justinian I., which happens to be my favorite leader. Why? I like both spiritual and imperialistic, although the latter doesn't get very much love. Hippodrome is fun and who knows, maybe I will go full cataphract mode. But mainly I like the colors of his borders

I like him a lot too, for some reason. Now that you mention, maybe it's the bolded part for me too.

 

[Lain]

Update to Turn 50

Spoiler :

After Agriculture I research Mining first, decision about Bronze Working vs. Archery has to be done after that though. But seeing the first barb archers near my borders like that already made up my mind at this stage pretty much...

I have jungle to my west and to my east. Have always wondered about that, but I think with slow leaders neither Bronze Working nor Animal Husbandry can really be afforded in some cases for barb survival.



I found Gandhi's borders, so at least that direction should be safe.



See, I am already on Turn 20 and Bronze Working would take... a long time. Even if I work commerce tiles (dye-grassland), it will take at least 12 turns. Building a mine and a road is another 6 turns. Getting out an axeman takes another 2 turns. So I wouldn't have barb defense until Turn 40+ ... and that is assuming I have copper in the first place. If not, I am basically dead or at least severely slowed down, sitting in my city with warriors.



For those reasons, I am going for Archery right now. Hunting is needed for the ivory camp at some point and it will speed up Animal Husbandry a bit. I also get some discounts on Hunting+Archery, having met 3 AI's who start with both.

Gandhi had founded Buddhism already. Now he gets Hinduism too and converts to it ....



Working 2 food 2 commerce while growing to size 3 and building a grassland mine. Will get out the warrior and build settler at size 3 for the gold spot.



Aaand Gandhi founds Judaism too. Early spy point analysis indicates that nobody else is on this continent. So the other one won't have an early religion at all. Also, there doesn't seem to be anyone to my east. Getting 6 cities shouldn't be an issue at all. I do enjoy that after the Lincoln game. Also means the elepult card won't be played. Probably no cataphracts either.



Time for settler . Worker will build a farm on the northern dye for the 2nd city to grow on. Gold will be worked at size 2.



I will put the new warrior on the forested hill over there. The idea is to protect the wet corn, the only tile I really don't want to have pillaged right now.



I found a nice spot to defend on. There is stone for later. I have to find out if that land is mine or if someone can get around the coast to settle it. Gandhi is NW of me, Shaka should be far W since he met Gandhi before Kublai did. The latter should be SW of me.



Here we go with the barbs... good luck, warrior.



He survived both in a row, though the second one was wounded already.

Archery is in, I will get out one after the settler is done. Bronze Working next for sure. I want to chop and make up for the delay. The gold should pay for that.



2nd city is settled while the worker built another dye-farm. Thessalonica will grow on an archer, work dye-farm + gold at size 2 and get out a settler after the archer is done.

Capital will also get out an archer while growing to size 4, then build another worker in preparation for chopping-madness.



Here we gooo, hi guys. I will put the archer on forested hill and hope he takes out both attackers.





Success



Well, there is copper as maybe could have been expected. Don't think I regret archery though . It would have been close.



My starter-warrior will try to defend the gold mine from barb warrior... he wins and I take out another warrior running through my land.





But there are still new guys storming my borders. Just leave the corn farm alone, you animals.



Pottery after Bronze Working is almost done. Writing next to start on an early library, not sure I will even research Animal Husbandry myself... just for the cows?

Capital: Another archer almost done, at size 5 I will que a settler and probably whip him with maximum overflow at 54/100 into a granary.



Another settler is well on its way in Thessalonica. Should have 4 cities by 1500 BC, though I don't know where to settle either yet.



Maybe one on the sugar to the east of my capital to help grow cottages and the other settler might go north to claim cows and, more importantly, cut off Gandhi from my lands. I'd rather have him settle towards Shaka.. for a number of reasons



W and SW of my capital there seems to be a lot of jungle, also a barb city.... also some barb civs (Kublai, Shaka). Not sure I want anything to do with all that.



Land overview



No big plans yet. Get to Writing, expand to 4-5 cities, lay down cottages. Maybe go for Alpha myself and then Currency. Don't see the big advantage of Aesthetics in this game with just 3 AI's. Alpha-Currency-CoL-Civil Service and play a solid game if possible

 

[sampsa]

Nice, Lain. You made me hate teching huntz-archery a bit less. Why are you not running binary research though? It's only a beaker here and there, but still...

 

[Lain]

Not running binary was just laziness on my part, no particular plan behind it. Just out of habit I start doing binary research only after writing for some reason. Which I did so I hope not too many beakers were lost in the process .

Next update will come tomorrow, I played to Turn 100. Just a little teaser...

Spoiler :

Guess who he is going after . Actually, it could be Gandhi. But would you take that risk? Or deploy some... preemptive measures?