AbsoluteZero
Deity
You're delaying bronze working so you can bulb what again? And when do you bulb it? I'm trying to see the whole point of delaying bronze working.
Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated
- Thread starter Brennus.Quigley
- Start date
The Oz-Man
Enter: The VAIKE!
Yeah, in looking at the finish date and the chosen Lib tech (which everyone already had), I'm just not seeing the value in this, especially if you had research turned off for 800 years to get a 1900's win date. Delaying BW just doesn't seem like an integral part of that strategy; instead, it was either some incredible diplomacy or some incredible luck or a little bit of both. What about BW was stopping you from having Lib in hand for Nationalism of all things by 1100ish?
UnforcedError
Settler
I think Brennus must have incredible diplomacy skills. I'm not convinced that the win had anything to do with delaying BW after Lib (Nat in 1100 AD?) either. Delaying BW for some time on this map makes sense. You can go for the Oracle or GLH or both and tech BW afterwards. Or go for early cottages and maybe GLH merchant + later CS bulb before BW. Delaying until Lib is wasting resources as you can whip a bit and chop all the forest there is. Plus you definitely need MC.
Smilingrogue
Raging Barbarian
I gave this map a go and I chopped out the GLH and the obvious move here is to bulb Astronomy and get the heck off our rock. I overwrote my saves as I am a dum-dum, but I don't think delaying BW will actually have any advantage. In fact, I would argue we need to get Metal Casting and Workshops, guilds, etc. as the land is just endless expanse of food-poor flatlands. With the Great Abusehouse (as Ecuwins calls it 
) Astro is the obvious choice and that means going down the BW route. In my limited view, I would much rather lose Lib on this map if it means I can bulb Astro as quickly as possible.
Overall, this is a lot like the religious economy. That's off beat and IMHO, extremely fun on the lower difficulties, but not great or even efficient strategy to adopt on most (if any) maps. I applaud Brennus for coming up with something out of the box, but it just doesn't have the oomph factor to rewrite tried and tested strategies.
) Astro is the obvious choice and that means going down the BW route. In my limited view, I would much rather lose Lib on this map if it means I can bulb Astro as quickly as possible.Overall, this is a lot like the religious economy. That's off beat and IMHO, extremely fun on the lower difficulties, but not great or even efficient strategy to adopt on most (if any) maps. I applaud Brennus for coming up with something out of the box, but it just doesn't have the oomph factor to rewrite tried and tested strategies.
Does this make sense?
200 AD Samurai. 5 cities, 4 with barracks and ready to roll. 2 with forges.
I went Writing->Alpha->Currency->CoL->CS bulb, then BW and up to Machinery. Traded for Math and IW along the way and accidentally founded Confu.
This is Toku/Japan, a leader entirely without economy bonuses, on the first fractal map I got, all settings default (except events off). I have some chariots against the barbs and have in fact 0.6
of my neighbors (HC and Sury); light on defense but not defenseless.
Starting save is attached if anyone wants to see the map. I'd be very interested to see if anyone can get Samurai (or maces, generally speaking) faster than this on a regular map without delaying BW (which makes the CS bulb possible).
Spoiler :
200 AD Samurai. 5 cities, 4 with barracks and ready to roll. 2 with forges.
I went Writing->Alpha->Currency->CoL->CS bulb, then BW and up to Machinery. Traded for Math and IW along the way and accidentally founded Confu.
This is Toku/Japan, a leader entirely without economy bonuses, on the first fractal map I got, all settings default (except events off). I have some chariots against the barbs and have in fact 0.6
of my neighbors (HC and Sury); light on defense but not defenseless.Starting save is attached if anyone wants to see the map. I'd be very interested to see if anyone can get Samurai (or maces, generally speaking) faster than this on a regular map without delaying BW (which makes the CS bulb possible).
Well, for an all-out-Macerush, 200 AD isn't even that fast. Plus, you have just 5 cities, and 200 AD isn't even your attack date... should take another 10 turns to build up an army, most likely even more.
I never bothered with Macerushes (when i get CS i want to leverage the bureaucracy science bonus, the human usually does this alot better than the AI), but 200 AD is certainly an date where you can get close to Lib on the right map and with the classic BW+Bulb approach.
I'm almost positive that you can get more cities with better infrastructure and a faster Mace-date on top with the classic BW approach.
I never bothered with Macerushes (when i get CS i want to leverage the bureaucracy science bonus, the human usually does this alot better than the AI), but 200 AD is certainly an date where you can get close to Lib on the right map and with the classic BW+Bulb approach.
I'm almost positive that you can get more cities with better infrastructure and a faster Mace-date on top with the classic BW approach.
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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And late BW leads to possibilities of late copper identification. And if iron is inexistant too, then that's going to be expensive to leverage a mace rush.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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The article is here. It identifies GS, GM, and GE bulbs that are opened up by avoiding Bronze Working.
For this game, I found it advantageous to bulb Liberalism via delaying Bronze Working. And Mylene, who has routinely mischaracterized the strategy from day one, is wrong. You avoid Bronze Working, Iron Working, Metal Casting, and Compass, not just Metal Casting and Compass.
I personally would not have won this map if I hadn't used this technique (and the end date could be sooner since I could have easily had the Great Library). I have been open the whole time to someone else beating the map with early Bronze Working, but haven't seen anyone post those results yet. Still waiting. Just mostly dismissive talk at this point (with some genuinely congratulating me). Perhaps with you I might not only get to see an early Bronze Working victory with this map, but a video of it as well
. (And thanks for your youtube series, while I'm at it.)I wouldn't have won the game without it.
That would be nice.
Well, I did go for the Oracle and early cottages (post Oracle) and my article specifically identifies that GM bulb. But again, I don't think the Great Lighthouse is a good play here. Would love to finally see your victory employing that strategy here.
Slaving away my citizens who were working cottages and generating Great People would have been a waste here, and getting off of my Liberalism beeline would have been a major distraction.
Apparently not.
Sounds great. Please replay and post the results and victory screen this time. I have always been open to seeing someone beat this map with early Bronze Working. You could be the first.
What a huge gain, esp. on Deity and with tech trading on.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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Since you are still following the thread despite all your insults and claims that I should be ignored, please just post your victory screen on this map and details of your play through. I'm sure myself and others could learn from seeing it.
Smilingrogue
Raging Barbarian
I played again and am attaching the save. I have no chance in Hell here.
I am just now learning the ropes of Immortal, Deity and isolated Deity at that, is well beyond my ability.
In my run Lib went in 1020 AD. But I managed to bulb Astor in 1080 AD. (I am sure it can be done much sooner. I have done it sooner on lower difficulty settings and there must be players here who can do it way faster)
And here, I am out of tricks. I traded Astro around, but I am hopelessly backwards. I don't know where to go from here as I don't have any experience with Deity.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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I played again and am attaching the save. I have no chance in Hell here.
I am just now learning the ropes of Immortal, Deity and isolated Deity at that, is well beyond my ability.
In my run Lib went in 1020 AD. But I managed to bulb Astor in 1080 AD. (I am sure it can be done much sooner. I have done it sooner on lower difficulty settings and there must be players here who can do it way faster)
And here, I am out of tricks. I traded Astro around, but I am hopelessly backwards. I don't know where to go from here as I don't have any experience with Deity.
Thanks for your contribution. It is appreciated.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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Oh, you're very welcome to post. But most of your posts are about how you have no interest in the conversation and that people should just ignore me, so it's a bit oddcomical even.
So your "optimal strategy" here is to ignore this map and reroll, correct?
Map is easy, takes out everything that makes Deity hard..
barb problems (small island), AI settling pressure (you are alone), early DoW (again, you are alone).
You may think i would reroll this, and maybe you are right..but that's cos i have higher standards than boring myself towards a culture "victory".
barb problems (small island), AI settling pressure (you are alone), early DoW (again, you are alone).
You may think i would reroll this, and maybe you are right..but that's cos i have higher standards than boring myself towards a culture "victory".
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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Wait a minute, I thought Deity isolated was one of the tougher situations. Which one is it Mylene?
But you are still motivated enough to post in the thread. Hmm... interesting, I guess. So are you prepared to say that a non-cultural victory is impossible on this map? Because I would welcome that too.
Meh you dun understand, there's a difference between easy game play wise, and towards victory screen.
Iso requires the least thinking, in return winning via more popular ways like Domi is "harder".
But it's not the "hard" you will face on Pangea Deity etc.
Iso requires the least thinking, in return winning via more popular ways like Domi is "harder".
But it's not the "hard" you will face on Pangea Deity etc.
Brennus.Quigley
Warlord
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Well, you certainly ignored the second question.
But as to your point... OK, so it seems to be your view that this is a game that requires Bronze Working early and very little thinking to win, but you do not have the time to play it and show everybody, just the time to post, mischaracterize, and ridicule. Is that right, or do I still dun understand?
