Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

[Ben Lehman]

The problem really is that there are a number of folks laying down a dense chaff of misinformation about Brennus's strategy and goals in this and the previous threads. I still have no idea whether or not this strategy is ever useful, but it seems to me that there are a number of folks who are deeply committed to making sure we never find out.

My hunch is that, if we investigated it, we'd find out that this strategy is not ideal under any except the most extreme of circumstances. But if we limit ourselves to "fun maps" (i.e. maps in which our preferred strategy is optimal) we'll never really find out.

I have lurked this forum for a long time and I remember when the first arguments about Courthouse and super-early cultural wins were being played out, and there was an environment of skeptical encouragement as well as a commitment to investigating the possible strategies.

Now it seems to be "if you don't reload until you get a high food start, then beeline Cuirs, you're a n00b and should off." This is a sad development.

 

[babar]

@Sun. That is a very special strategy you are proposing, but not what Brennus did in his game, if you reread his first post. Nationalism does not require BW by the way.

@Ben. No one is stopping you from finding out. It just makes so little discernable sense that people don't want to waste their time.

 

[Bandobras Took]

@Ben. No one is stopping you from finding out. It just makes so little discernible sense that people don't want to waste their time.

I've always admired that argument: "It fails to pass a test that it's never been given because of its failure to pass."

Nobody has actually demonstrated that it makes little sense -- on the contrary, the demonstration seems to be that an Immortal player moving up to Deity can make use of these strategies if map conditions are right.

It's even more telling that most of the people citing their long experience in these matters have frankly admitted that they don't play these kind of maps -- which means they actually have little to no experience whatsoever with the conditions of which Brennus Quigley is speaking. If they do frequently play these maps, then it's high time one of them actually demonstrated their experience, skill, and knowledge by winning this one (i.e. getting a victory screen, not a Liberalism pop-up).

And obviously, nobody is stopping me from finding out. Fortunately, I don't have any sort of burden to do so, as I haven't spoken either in support or denigration of his strategy and tactics. All I've done is point out which side is making a stronger argument. I've actually been very curious to see what one of the experts would do to win this map.

 

[Mylene]

Oh well after all the arguing, i played till Lib.
Will be 980 AD, terrible date cos i got screwed by meeting only Wang Kon (who was already teching Edu too) and losing Music while having teched that already half thru.

This shows only 1 thingy: Deity Iso = totally random and luck dependent with this start, if i meet just 1 AI earlier i can save ~10 or more turns of teching via trading.
But i used no cheat mode, and teched BW instead of going Oracle and Relis, what everybody would do when seeing this start normally without knowing the map.

 

[ahcos]

Yes, there have been times when really new strategies etc. were invented and discussed, and some people tryed to knock them down ... but don't mix those medieval times up with the current situation. Nowadays Immortal difficulty is pretty common and alot of people have alot of knowledge of this game. Alot of the things possible have been thought through already.
Now we have the delayed BW approach, and the only thing that's really going for it is the fact that can forgo some rather cheap techs just to be able to bulb some other techs. Don't get me wrong, there actually should be an advantage if you a) don't have much food or almost none at all b) don't have people to trade with, otherwise it's just too easy to trade for BW/IW/MC/Compass for almost nothing c) do not need any of the said techs.
It'll in fact net you a beaker surplus to the cost of the listed tech, which should be huge in isolation. Still, this approach has some flaws:

a) when you go for Lib with a limited techspeed and rely on bulbing, you'll have to chose a VC that enables you to win with the advantage Lib gave you. Infra & techrate should be abysmal, because you don't have much Infra and a rather slow teching map type and no production from whipping. You're isolated, so unless you pop Astro from a hut military VCs are out of the question, just like space & time VC.

b) Leaves you with culture or diplo. Diplo is hard when you need the teching to get to Mass Media (and the production to build the UN in time), culture is very risky when you can't control the game until the ADs. Which leads to ...

c) it might be much better to just rush towards Astro and forget about Lib. Will give you solid teching and hopefully control of the game


Overall, delaying BW gives you very little control in such situations, which is why i think it's very risky. It's fortunate to say the least that BQs game went so smooth and no AI overwhelmed the others, you really can't rely on something like that. On a sidenote, that's part of the reason why some players keep nagging about the game as a whole.

Most of the good strategies and playstyles evolve around control of the game. As long as you don't have the control over the game anything can happen...

So, maybe BQ found something to slow the AI here, we don't know - and because of the we need more games. So far we have nothing but people going at each others throat...

And to be perfectly clear, yes, i do think that this strategy actually might have some value in isolation, but i'm absolutely sure it is inferior in "normal" maps to the standard BW approach. Still, there is some work needed to be done in order to refine it up to the point where it can compete against straight Astro rushes or standard BW -> Lib isolation games. Mostly because you really need some straight indications that point you towards this approach - just abundance of food and forest really is NOT enough, as this might aswell be a good game for a Astro rush. I think vicawoo posted a game some time ago where he relied on pop4 cities working riverside plain cottages to stagnate in growth while stacking up several GSs to bulb optics and Astro... pretty neat aswell.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Oh well after all the arguing, i played till Lib.
Will be 980 AD, terrible date cos i got screwed by meeting only Wang Kon (who was already teching Edu too) and losing Music while having teched that already half thru.

This shows only 1 thingy: Deity Iso = totally random and luck dependent with this start, if i meet just 1 AI earlier i can save ~10 or more turns of teching via trading.
But i used no cheat mode, and teched BW instead of going Oracle and Relis, what everybody would do when seeing this start normally without knowing the map.

I'm impressed that you finally played the start through Liberalism. However, where is your comparison of the two strategies? What is "totally random and luck dependent" about this start that you can discern by playing a single game through Liberalism? An isolated start by definition means you will not meet a single AI for a very, very long time. It seems reasonable that technology trading will be of little value. The disappointing performance of the early Bronze Working strategy can also be viewed as demonstrating that the delayed Bronze Working strategy may actually be better for "An Isolated Start and Cultural Victory".

One is free to use any "competing" strategy as long as Bronze Working is researched early as a counter example to the delayed Bronze Working strategy. Indeed, The Oracle is often chopped and one obviously needs Bronze Working to do that; It's not clear to me why The Oracle was avoided. Also, if a Cultural Victory is planned, one should try to get at least three Religions; one should be free to use early Bronze Working to get those Religions, if possible. Indeed, avoiding the founding Religions in an Isolated Start when the goal is a Cultural Victory puts that victory in great jeopardy via excessive delay in achieving it.

What would be most impressive is a strategy that researches Bronze Working early and leverages it for a Cultural Victory that is earlier than what can be achieved with the delayed Bronze Working strategy which has been shown twice through to the victory screen.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shlks]

Which, and how many religions did BQ found? I'd say it's somewhat popular to say the more religions you let the AI found the more conflict it causes among them, which normally in a pangaea situation is good for you. However denying them religion may delay their cultural victories especially if you are isolated.

I was going to propose a theory that the number of religions the AI receives affects their playstyle but all aspects may not fit this situation (could blame on arid map). I was seeing two sides of a coin, one where they found most or all of the religions, the other less so.

• The AI are very religious, maybe very religiously diverse. They will be more warmongering and will likely tech trade less with heathens, but possibly more with friends? Balance of power may become more lopsided, making a snowballing AI more likely. They will have more access to culture speeding up their culture victories. Stopping this monster may be more critical.

• The AI don't think about religion much, and maybe they have less disagreements. They will likely have more options in tech trading and will likely be more friendly with one another, especially if they get fewer religions. They won't gain culture as fast, and may decide to go all out on culture even later (they have 4 stages when thinking about culture, ask tachy). Maybe united they tech faster, probably even faster than a snowballed religious AI.

So possibly if you found a religion you delay AI cultural and domination wins, but accelerate space victory, or diplo AI wins.

About liberalism...

Unfortunately, you still don't seem to understand the strategy that Brennus.Quigley clearly explained as well as is humanly possible. One does not delay Bronze Working until after Liberalism is completed. One delays Bronze Working until one has bulbed most of Liberalism; this allows Bronze Working and technologies dependent on it to be traded for and thus the 1st to Liberalism free Technology can be one that requires technologies that dependent on Bronze Working. This vastly increases the value of the Strategy under certain circumstances where the desired free Technology depends on BW.

I only play on emperor/immortal but the problem with that is you rely on the AI for finding you first which would probably happen on deity by the time you get liberalism. I guess this is reasonable on deity but you have practically no control on this outcome. So does this limit this strategy to isolated, deity, culture wins? Oh my.

 

[Mylene]

I'm not playing for culture.
And normally you meet them much earlier, i did not go for Oracle cos i would not do that with this start unless i know the map and my goal already.

Disappointing performance? Game is winnable with Pyras, via conquest or Domi..
normal case would be meeting several AIs no later than 600AD, how do i know? Not my first Deity Iso.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm not playing for culture.
And normally you meet them much earlier, i did not go for Oracle cos i would not do that with this start unless i know the map and my goal already.

If you are not interested in a Cultural Victory on Isolated Maps with low Food and low Forests, why do you even bother to post to this thread?

Disappointing performance? Game is winnable with Pyras, via conquest or Domi..
normal case would be meeting several AIs no later than 600AD, how do i know? Not my first Deity Iso.

When someone complains about "bad luck" that delayed Liberalism by about ~10 turns, it should be clear the player was disappointed. Thus, a disappointing performance.

If the map is winnable via other Victory Conditions, please demonstrate. The AI may have Stone and complete The Pyramids first, then what should the player do? The Pyramids will improve Happiness Cap for the largest cities via Representation and later one might utilize Police State; not sure that's worthwhile for the Hammers invested. It would be better to capture The Pyramids, but that's not a viable option for an Isolated Start. Conquest and Domination Victories do not sound optimal for an Isolated Start either; they both must wait until Astronomy and at least another equally powerful Technology like Military Tradition; there is also the large Navy that has to be built too, plus there is some risk that the military units become obsolete in transit. On the other hand, there is no doubt that Conquest and Domination Victories are possible on this Map, but there may be better better Victory Conditions to pursue.

The AIs are slowed down significantly by an Arid Climate, so they may not arrive as early you claim (by 600 AD).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mylene]

I completed them 1840BC.
Should be safe. Yip can be lost. So can the Oracle which usually goes way earlier. We play Deity, everything can go wrong. Yet you back his super strategy up, and even have the nerves questioning such early Pyras (i even delayed my first settler..).

Honestly i'm done with this thread and should have known it's a waste of time, you guys have some serious issues..

 

[Revent]

I'm sure a skilled player such as Mylene would be able to win via conquest. I did play this to the point of fission in this game and I went BW first. Due to poor understanding of the mechanics behind nukes, I ended up rage quitting but had planned everything better and understood the mechanics, I am very positive I could have won via the scorched earth technique.

 

[cseanny]

should have known it's a waste of time, you guys have some serious issues..

^^. You should have realized this from the second it was posted. Those posting otherwise are only wasting your time further. It's completely bogus so don't feel bad Mylene. And certainly don't get frustrated with something so completely backwards.

 

[DDRS2]

Mylene posted a lot of poop on the strat and failed to finish the game.

It probably spent more time dissing the strategy than playing the game.

I think it's a good (correct) strategy for certain situations. But is it consistently reliable?

Still: On isolated Diety starts, the score is 2-0.

 

[shakabrade]

Don't forget arid cause arid is keeping an AI from winning.

Without some trash talking, I think arid makes game easier.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Mylene posted a lot of poop on the strat and failed to finish the game.

It probably spent more time dissing the strategy than playing the game.

I think it's a good (correct) strategy for certain situations. But is it consistently reliable?

Still: On isolated Diety starts, the score is 2-0.

And here come the brainwashed Noble players to back him up.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I don't understand the venomous hate in this thread. It's just a strategy, whether good or not. Some of you are acting like Brennus called your mother ugly.

I've been here since 2007, and this is kind of ridiculous. This game has been out for years, of course we are to the point of grasping at straws to find new strats. I wouldn't use the delayed BW approach, but I appreciate the effort to find a new way to play the game. You can only lib to Curs so many times before you find yourself bored.