Delaying Scientific Method?

[MilesBeyond]

As a peace-monger I always build the Parthenon and the Great Library, which I consider to be two of the best wonders in the game (two free scientists and faster Great Scientists!), not to mention the fact that the AI seems to leave off Aesthetics and Literature so they're pretty easy to get even without IND or marble. I also build tons of Monasteries because, well, stackable 10% beaker boost.

Because of this, I loathe Scientific Method. By that point the Parthenon usually isn't terribly useful, but obsoleting the Great Library and all those monasteries is usually a huge blow to my tech, so I end up putting it off as long as possible, most recently making it to Combustion and Assembly Line first (so I could mine oil, I just couldn't see it LOL).

So any thoughts? If you run a similar approach to science, how do you negotiate this transition?

 

[obsolete]

Failaxis and its infinite wisdom (or lack thereof), decided to make a tech with the name SCIENTIFIC, as thought it somehow were to boost your science, but instead made it do the exact opposite.

As a general rule these days, I avoid this science tech at all costs, since it basically kills my science rate. Ohhh the irony.

 

[Um the Muse]

It doesn't directly help you, but the techs just beyond it are essential. I put it off too, but I'm pretty sure doing so is hurting me.

Btw, if you don't think the Parthenon is very good by this point, why do you consider the GL to still be good? It's 6 :beakers:. By this time, I'm sure the monastaries are worth as much. Earlier, of course, it's much more valuable, because it also boosts your GPP and raises the odds you'll get a GS.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, the thing is, scientific method is a gateway to 3 of the most important economic techs in the late game - Communism (State property) and Biology/Medicine (super farms and corporations)

Personally, I think it's a great design choice by Firaxis - it's certainly a difficult decision to make as to when to go for it.

As for the library - I've taken to building it in my NE city, so it's provided a lot of my GP points...

 

[admtanaka]

Although it can seem counter-intuitive and sometimes annoys me, I think I too like the design decision to have scientific method obsolete many of the old science buildings and wonders. As someone else mentioned, it's only a short-term decrease, and I think it depicts the paradigm shift from classical to more modern modes of inquiry nicely.

 

[obsolete]

It makes no sense to kill the science output of monasteries yet not increase the output of standard libraries, particularly when a tech is supposed to INCREASE SCIENCE OUTPUT.

Another over-sight by Failaxis. Even a 6 year old could have designed a better system here.

When you have a science breakthrough tech... I mean scientific method here, the be all-of-all science methods... and yet people avoid this tech like the plague because it in fact does the opposite, you have a very BAD DESIGN!

It's like teching for AMPHIBIOUS TROOPS, when at the same time it opens up an era that gives you 100% penalty on all your troops for amphibious invasions. I have no idea how this even got through the beta team, except that Failaxis told us that no one was able to even once win an AP victory (yes even when it was even easier than it is now!).

That's really telling a lot right there.

 

[ecuwins]

Hmm...Civ has always had obsolescence techs. It adds a bit of flavor/challenge IMO. As to why Scientific Method obsoletes the sciencey wonders, I do not know. Now if I were to imagine, I'd imagine this - SM heralded in a new age of science. Monasteries, being one of the primary places of scholarship outside of the nobility, gave way to institutions of higher learning.

obsolete makes a good point here. Buffing the Libs and Unis would make sense(or buffing the scientist spec could be interesting as well). Instead, we get the Observatory and Research Lab.

 

[admtanaka]

Although I can see your point about perhaps increasing the output of libraries, I must imagine that the free religion 10% science bonus generally offsets the benefits of monasteries (or at least was designed to do so).

Should monasteries not obsolete? If they are going to, I think Scientific Method makes sense as a starting point as I mentioned above. A reasonable alternative might be liberalism (it allows the "offset" civic). I don't see the GL having a huge impact on raw beakers at this point in the game, so I'm not sure how that is killing science output (although the GPP are always nice).

Edit: cross-posted with ecuwins (typed slowly and got distracted without refreshing the page)

 

[Archbob]

Its too important of a gateway to ignore

 

[ecuwins]

Sometimes, oh yes. It gives you your Oil for the Destroyers that will control the sea for a long time. The tech definitely has its uses.

 

[ben-jammin]

Wouldnt bother to delay it if you're going to need more than cavalry or cannons to win the game, or at least get yourself into a dominant position.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Naming choices aside, let's talk about the tech itself. It does zero for you, but the follow-on techs are fabulous. So, you want to minimize the time between when the wonders die and when the later techs kick in. A few tips:

-Get the pre-reqs before SM.
-Binary research. Save up enough gold to tech SM plus at least 1 follow-on tech before turning on research.
-If you're going for cottages, rather than farms + workshops, delay SM. The free GP are nice, but not a real reason to race the techs.

By the way, I'm glad to be at home for a week, and looking forward to finishing up the Asoka game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Ok I understand the science output fall; state property and biology are really strong. But it's annoying that you can no longer build monasteries AT ALL, meaning you can't build missionaries unless you had an existing monastery (oh nos what if it gets sabotaged?) unless you run Organized Religion.

Oh and, you lose the AP hammers. Derp. Researching this unscientific method just lowered your production.

And what happens when the AP religion is on another landmass or the other side of the world and you haven't gotten to it yet? Well, sux to be you.

 

[obsolete]

Researching this unscientific method just lowered your production.

Haha, not only that, but if you have that wonder that gives extra commerce for every religious building, you just took another hit on your economy with that was as well.... because your people are now smarter???

That makes sense... smarter people = less income and cashflow. At least I can understand free-thinking causing a decrease in church attendance, but come on... there is supposed to be a + side to this enlightenment.

Anyway, did you also know that scientific method also takes a hit on your culture?

I just can't say anything good about this f*cking tech.

 

[Um the Muse]

@ArchonWing: Yeah, from a historical viewpoint, it's weird that they tied religious buildings to wonders or that monastaries grant you a percent bonus. Not letting you build missionaries is also a weird oversight. I don't even understand the rationale behind getting extra from the AP buildings.

However, I still think it was a cool decision from a game mechanics viewpoint. It's like they're daring you--"Are you ready to take the plunge, and change the entire world as you know it?"

 

[mtr12]

I think they're doing it to give empires who didn't get the 3 wonders or spam Monasteries a chance to get back in the game. They are the ones who will have no reservations about getting SciMet.

But yeah, for an SSE/OCC player, SciMet is a gigantic troll tech.

 

[fed1943]

I like the game's balance.
But I must agree that the name of the tech is not good.
But what's in a name?

 

[vranasm]

I think they're doing it to give empires who didn't get the 3 wonders or spam Monasteries a chance to get back in the game. They are the ones who will have no reservations about getting SciMet.

But yeah, for an SSE/OCC player, SciMet is a gigantic troll tech.

too bad that the tech hurts only the player that researches it and not everyone then...

But luckilly computer AI doesn't probably realize that it's more beneficial to get factories before SciMeth in a lot of situations.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

[...] But yeah, for an SSE/OCC player, SciMet is a gigantic troll tech.

Couldn't agree more, my science output normally drops by a full 25%. It can't be put off though because it's needed for Biology.

 

[RJM]

Like the OP, I usually delay SM until there is nothing else useful to research. I usually build the GL and University of Sankore. If the US and Apostolic Palace have different religions, and I need to push culture in border cities, I could have quite a lot of monasteries.

SM opens up 2 useful techs straight away - Physics and Biology. Physics may give you a free great scientist and Biology increases food production from farms. Both of these can boost research, but in my experience, it will be a number of turns before total research recovers to pre SM levels.

The benefit of delaying SM is that you can usually trade for it; very often you can then trade for one of Physics and Biology and sometimes both. Zero on the research slider will minimise the wasted beakers.

Perhaps a more detailed investigation is required, but for the moment, nothing that has been said in this thread makes me think a peaceful builder should make SM a priority.