Design: The Svartalfar

[Nor'easter]

The Svartalfal are a matriachic society? When or where was this ever mentioned? Maybe I've been missing something, but the Svartalfar aren't Drow, folks.

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

 

[rusty217]

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

I thought the Svartalfar of norse mythology were supposed to be the more masculine of the two elves? With the Ljosalfar being the feminine?

 

[Xuenay]

I think because the AD&D Drow were based on the svart-alfar of Norse mythology, it's natural that people would tend to think of the Drow in connection with the FfH Svartalfar.

I don't think most people know enough Norse mythology to make that connection - instead, they'll just think of the Drow when they see any female-led society of dark elves.

 

[DeaExMachina]

Do the Svartalfar use the SureShot female art or is it new more male oriented art? I was very partial to actually having a Civ with mainly female units and one of the primary reasons I liked the Civ. It was part of their uniqueness even if it wasn't mechanical to me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, most, but not all, of their units are female dark elves from Sureshots mod. Of course, this might have changed if the teem wanted new graphics for the release of Shadow.

 

[seZereth]

Do the Svartalfar use the SureShot female art or is it new more male oriented art? I was very partial to actually having a Civ with mainly female units and one of the primary reasons I liked the Civ. It was part of their uniqueness even if it wasn't mechanical to me.

I´ve designed the swordsgirl and the female archer a long time ago and then for shadow now, i´ve designed a female warrior and scout.
Out of time reasons, their unit art will have to wait a bit. but it will come and it will be female.

ah, and we have a female tiger rider called nyxkin

 

[kenken244]

OOH! so can we cage their mount and use it to build The Grand Menagerie?

 

[Morni]

OOH! so can we cage their mount and use it to build The Grand Menagerie?

Logic has no place in games.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Logic has no place in games.

It should have!

 

[Bitwise]

I've just wiped out two civs with 1 turn wars. Thank you Council of Esus and Alazkan.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Alkazan is incredible! Just played, I rushed to poisons and built him. Next, I sent him and an assasin to my neighbors lands. ALkazan and his mirror would destroy the mirrors, and then barbarians would take the city, then the assasin would kill the orcs. RInse, Repeat. Took out the entire 5 city civ this way.

 

[tharg]

I have no problem with the Svartalfar, but what I don’t see what the council of Esus does for them.

They are basically elves with +1 to recon rather than archers. WoF seems the obvious choice, they are going to want to research hunting as soon as possible, so WoF is just natural.

Having the AI prefer CoE just seems to be messing up the Svartalfar development for role-playing purposes. Well maybe that’s ok, but I can’t help feeling that they have somehow missed!?! Perhaps their Hero should need deception or something.

Been playing the Sandy, CoE seems much more natural for them. The Sidar seems to fit much better. Giving up all your best units is so painful!!

 

[Polycrates]

I have no problem with the Svartalfar, but what I don’t see what the council of Esus does for them.

They are basically elves with +1 to recon rather than archers. WoF seems the obvious choice, they are going to want to research hunting as soon as possible, so WoF is just natural.

Having the AI prefer CoE just seems to be messing up the Svartalfar development for role-playing purposes. Well maybe that’s ok, but I can’t help feeling that they have somehow missed!?! Perhaps their Hero should need deception or something.

Been playing the Sandy, CoE seems much more natural for them. The Sidar seems to fit much better. Giving up all your best units is so painful!!

I was going to make a similar comment to this. The Svartalfar have the same massive synergy with Leaves that the Ljosalfar do, and it's hard to see Esus (or any other religion) ever being a better choice for them when Leaves offers so much. Perhaps even more than for the Ljosalfar, since their already-buffed hunters can also get poisoned blade from priests and become extra-deadly.
And I would only call them defensively weak in comparison to the Ljosalfar, who are pretty much the best defenders in the game. A carpet of ancient forest is an incredible defense against any attacker, particularly if you've got uber-recon units with woodsman promos to whittle down attacking stacks to nothing. They defend pretty well too, even in cities, since there's no anti-recon promotion. I'd have to consider them one of the strongest defensive civs in the game, using Leaves.
So I'd also consider them an excellent builder civ, based on their solid defense and the incredible tile bonuses that working forests gives.
Other problem with a big Leaves synergy: making them all lovey-dovey with the Ljosalfar!

I don't know exactly how it would be done, but I feel that the civ's design intentions (as well as its uniqueness from the Ljosalfar) could be better served by cutting down its synergy with Leaves. I know you can use Leaves and then switch to Esus after you're all forested, but that really feels horribly powergamey to me.
Suggestion right off the top of my head: their cottages can only grow to hamlets on forested tiles, and the forest needs to be chopped if you want to go beyond that.

 

[onedreamer]

I agree with the last 2 comments. My main gripe about Svartalfar's implementation is that it didn't respect the plans and expatations. Even the title of this "expansion", "Hidden Enemies", isn't really appropriate since the spell Hide is mana based unlike the trait mechanic, and it's a mediocre spell in a strategy game, may I add. It is a superb spell in a RPG, but in a strategy game, where you can plan your losses etc, hiding a unit at the price of not attacking is far from being a power. Also, still from a strategic point of view, the Svartalfar aren't much different from the Ljosalfar... only if you will really roleplay both of them they will be different experiences. I can't hide that, being a big fan of the Dark Elven world, I'm quite disappointed, since I had been waiting for this Civ for 2 years, and when it's finally implemented it doesn't use any new mechanic (apart the new hero, but I can't say that Kael wasn't as powerful as the new one). Could have been made playable before, then.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

I see no problem with the fellowship of the leaves synergy. They are still Elves after all. The whole Evil thing though still gives them a -2 diplo with the Ljosalfar. Just because they're Evil doesn't mean that they can't worship trees. I would think that the better route would be to hard code a -4 diplo hit between the Ljosalfar and the Svartalfar. This would put the Svarts at a -6 diplo hole from the beginning of the game.

I think there's an awesome synergy between worshipping the trees and then going with CoE. Heck, it's even got great RP potential and follows with the Svart's evolution into creatures of malice and shadow...but to take away their ability to build in forested tiles would make them...well un-Elven.

I like them just the way they are. There are bigger issues here. Unless you're playing against a human, the AI is like a crippled baby lamb trying to flee from a pack of hungry wolves. I have never had an AI army use the Sorcerer-Summoner-Hero combo. The only time I've ever lost was on Emperor with continents as the Calibim, and forgot to check for defensive pacts before attacking a neighbor.

 

[onedreamer]

Whoever said there's a problem with them worshipping FoL ? We actually said the contrary: the point that's been made is that they are essentially the same Civ as Ljosalfar, with little tweaks, yet we had to wait until now to play it ?

 

[Sureshot]

Esus and Empyrean are both really later game religions too.

Leaves, Runes, OO are the early religions.
Order and AV are the midgame religions.
Esus and Empyrean are the lategame religions.

Because Faeryl has no builder traits you need to focus on maintaining a stranglehold on the world more than you need to focus on utilizing your builder traits like other civs. I played a game on Deity with 19 civs and managed to dominate only by backstabbing and playing everyone against each other. And you need to decide if you want the Esus HC or the Leaves HC, hard to get both without rushing them. Leaves tends to be a adopted religion when it spreads to you religion.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

good point, onedreamer. I had been inferring something from what was said earlier, concerning the AI and the CoE preferrence and something from the previous page, concerning the RP issues with both loving trees. Perhaps I interpretted something that wasn't there.

This expansion does seem to expand on the capabilities of hidden nationality units, and also gives you, the war planner, more options. However, I do agree with you in terms of flavor. The Svarts are essentially just evil cousins to the Lsjosalfar.

I had hoped for teleporting or phase-shifting...or a spellsword type unit (ala morrowind) with lvl 2 channeling and decent combat strength...Maybe a slave unit? If you play against the AI, then the Svarts practically break the game for you. If you play againsts Humans, then your abilities are kept in check. I think we were waiting on the art.

Then again, I haven't played a new game far enough to witness the impact of the councils.

 

[onedreamer]

I'm missing something here, I believe. How does Shadow expand the capabilities of hidden units if now they (again) can't take cities ? This is another sore point for Svartalfar: how useful is it to turn all your combat units into units that will not be able to take cities ? Your experienced units will not be able to take cities for the rest of the game unless you declare nationality again, a moot point casting the spell then, since unexperienced units are unlikely to cause any trouble. If it is true that Svartalfar should be offensive (I actually don't see significant strategic reasons for this), how is a spell that screws your offensive potential any good ? To me it seems more detrimental than helpful, but I haven't played enough and hopefully I'm missing something.

 

[rusty217]

I'm missing something here, I believe. How does Shadow expand the capabilities of hidden units if now they (again) can't take cities ? This is another sore point for Svartalfar: how useful is it to turn all your combat units into units that will not be able to take cities ? Your experienced units will not be able to take cities for the rest of the game unless you declare nationality again, a moot point casting the spell then, since unexperienced units are unlikely to cause any trouble. If it is true that Svartalfar should be offensive (I actually don't see significant strategic reasons for this), how is a spell that screws your offensive potential any good ? To me it seems more detrimental than helpful, but I haven't played enough and hopefully I'm missing something.

The unexperienced units don't actually need to cuase any trouble, the hidden nationality units can't take cities but they can reduce them to 0 units, so you can use your stronger units to ensure there are no defenders before you even start the war.