Design: Units

[loki1232]

I think that was the original design, yes.

 

[QES]

I think Pyre Zombies need to be relooked at. They are identical to axemen, except that they have no bonus versus melee and are undead. Undead doesn't provide bonuses, since being melee they are still vulnerable to axemen and such. And they can't upgrade. Or is there a hidden advantage I'm unaware of?

I think being "undead" should in itself be some sort of simultanious advantage/disadvantage.

Perhaps all undead units (whilst being immune to certain affects like fear and charms) should also have some sort of innate "Stamina" boon.

I know i mentioned this mechanic SOMEWHERE else in this forum a while ago, why not give undead units 150 base hitpoints instead of the every-unit standard of 100? It'd mean they'd last 50% longer in a fight. Clearly there'd be a need to tweak-balance it. But it'd still offer some flavor for being undead. Plus undead units dont have other benefits - like keeping populace happy, or being sacrificable.
-Qes

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Perhaps Undead should start off very strong, and slowly decay over time, representing the body rotting away.

 

[Kael]

I think being "undead" should in itself be some sort of simultanious advantage/disadvantage.

Perhaps all undead units (whilst being immune to certain affects like fear and charms) should also have some sort of innate "Stamina" boon.

I know i mentioned this mechanic SOMEWHERE else in this forum a while ago, why not give undead units 150 base hitpoints instead of the every-unit standard of 100? It'd mean they'd last 50% longer in a fight. Clearly there'd be a need to tweak-balance it. But it'd still offer some flavor for being undead. Plus undead units dont have other benefits - like keeping populace happy, or being sacrificable.
-Qes

Their are no hit points in Civ4, just a units life represented in a percentage from 0-100%. The attacker and defenders relative strength decides on how much of that percentage is removed on each hit (to be honest a units life isnt tracked, only his amount of damage from 0% to 100%). Although changing the hit points is doable you will break all assumptions about a unit with 110% damage (which in normal functions means he is dead).

I have been thinking about a promotion called "tough" (placeholder name) that reduces every hit of damage by 1 point. But that would probably be more for golems, a few dwarven units, and the effect of a magical shield. I dont think I would make undead especially invulnerable.

Currently undead have the following special bonus's:

1. No maintenance cost.
2. Dont make people feel safe.
3. Effected by the destroy undead spell.
4. Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
5. Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
6. Ability to learn some special promotions (fear, though I would like a few more of these).

Outside of that they should probably be specialized in the unit instead of as an undead as a whole. There is a pretty wide range of different undead types.

 

[Grey Fox]

I think you should wait with most damage hitpoint changing promotions until we have items in the game. (Hopefully every individual unit will mean even more then).

So you could have for example shields that has a chance to block an incomming attack, removing a certain amount or % of the damage, etc.

I'm gonna do similar kinda things in cIVRPG once I start working on it again.

 

[Xuenay]

Currently undead have the following special bonus's:

1. No maintenance cost.
2. Dont make people feel safe.
3. Effected by the destroy undead spell.
4. Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
5. Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
6. Ability to learn some special promotions (fear, though I would like a few more of these).

Is that information in the Civilopedia under the Undead promotion entry? If not, it should be.

 

[QES]

Their are no hit points in Civ4, just a units life represented in a percentage from 0-100%. The attacker and defenders relative strength decides on how much of that percentage is removed on each hit (to be honest a units life isnt tracked, only his amount of damage from 0% to 100%). Although changing the hit points is doable you will break all assumptions about a unit with 110% damage (which in normal functions means he is dead).

I have been thinking about a promotion called "tough" (placeholder name) that reduces every hit of damage by 1 point. But that would probably be more for golems, a few dwarven units, and the effect of a magical shield. I dont think I would make undead especially invulnerable.

Currently undead have the following special bonus's:

1. No maintenance cost.
2. Dont make people feel safe.
3. Effected by the destroy undead spell.
4. Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
5. Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
6. Ability to learn some special promotions (fear, though I would like a few more of these).

Outside of that they should probably be specialized in the unit instead of as an undead as a whole. There is a pretty wide range of different undead types.

First off, thank you for this list. Its good to know what all undeadies are about.
Secondly the HP thing (now that you have explained it) makes a lot more sense. I undertand the difficulties, I had always just assumed there were merely X hp and it was removed from targets at variable rates based on STR. But now that i know its % i understand the realative problems with trying to have excesses and such.
Thirdly, I like your idea of "tough" but i agree that its not so much an undead thing as a golem thing. (Golems need a boost anyway, outside of barney)
Fourthly - Didnt know they didnt cost maintenance - so the bonus is building them EN masse - very cool.
Fourthly - some undead specifics ideas:

*Undead perhaps cheaper than the standard units? Not merely no maintenance.
*If possible require 150% damage to kill (they must be completely destroyed not merely "mortally wounded". Though this is what i suggested earlier, and may be impossible.
*Life Spells have negative effects on them. (Possible?)
*Death spells have positive effects on them.(Possible?)

Promotions ideas:

Touch of Necromacy
- Unit can spread "undeath" to other units. Whenever a unit is attacked (and killed) by this unit, it has a 5% chance of becoming undead. (This would work like the "capture animals" function, only at a FAR lower % chance and the newly captured unit would gain the "Undead promotion")

Vile Darkness
- The entire unit becomes enshrouded by a deep darkness. Therfore the Unit becomes immune to First strikes. (Darkness making it hard to shoot at.)

Horde Legioniares
- The undead unit has advanced and become experianced enough to function independantly of the magic that sustains it generated by the mother-civ. It gains the "Hidden Nationality" quality.

Soul Reavers
-Every Time the unit kills a "Living Unit", it gains 2xp.

Conscriptors of the Damned
- Gains Mercenary Ability, All merc units generated, gain the undead promotion.

Doomkeepers
- If kept in a city that city gains +2 Unhealthy, +2 Unhappiness. Unit Can see invisable units and gets +50% against Invisable units and Hidden Nationality Units.


-Qes

 

[Ploeperpengel]

The requested Candymaceman

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4514839&postcount=20

 

[Grey Fox]

How about making additional changes to recon units (even more then suggested for 1.16), like giving them more withdrawal, less strenght and the ability to run from a losing fight when defending once per turn?

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I think this guy would make a good dwarven inquisitor.
I really like the way he pauses to kneel and pray on occasion.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2758

 

[Jono]

Touch of Necromacy
- Unit can spread "undeath" to other units. Whenever a unit is attacked (and killed) by this unit, it has a 5% chance of becoming undead. (This would work like the "capture animals" function, only at a FAR lower % chance and the newly captured unit would gain the "Undead promotion")

How about instead:
Necromancy: +100% against undead, the necromancer has a chance to take control of undead beings (including vampires) in adjacent tiles? (this wouldn't affect heroes and would be dependant on the necromancer remaining near the undead unit, which would have a small chance to free himself from mind control).

 

[Grey Fox]

How about instead:
Necromancy: +100% against undead, the necromancer has a chance to take control of undead beings (including vampires) in adjacent tiles? (this wouldn't affect heroes and would be dependant on the necromancer remaining near the undead unit, which would have a small chance to free himself from mind control).

Or how about, whenever a living unit dies in an adjacent tile, or the same tile, there is chance that unit is transformed into an undead unit.

 

[QES]

Or how about, whenever a living unit dies in an adjacent tile, or the same tile, there is change that unit is transformed into an undead unit.

This is what i proposed. I like the other idea two, and im not sure if its mutually exclusive, both could be added. My list was just a "buffet" of options that Kael will most likely ignore. .

But then, my ideas are usually very strange tasting, and an hour later your hungry again and have to spend too much time in the bathroom, so Kael knows not to touch anything i provide.
-Qes

 

[Grey Fox]

OH NO! QES liked my idea! Now it won't ever get into the game!!

 

[QES]

OH NO! QES liked my idea! Now it won't ever get into the game!!

Dont worry, i pointed out that the idea you "proposed" I had come up with not 3 posts earlier. So really you liked MY idea. .

Actually i dont think it matters if you or I like it. Its a good idea, and thats what will doom it. (Just kidding).
-Qes

 

[Civkid1991]

i was just thinking... it would be cool if i got an special promotion for killing a dragon... so what about dragon hides... they could be used for armour and as far as i know dragons are magic resistent... i guess it can be a promotion that you get when you defeat the red dragon or maybe a resource that would allow you units access to the dragon armour promotion that gives a small defence bonus and a some what small magic resistent bonus.

@Keal... didn't know where else to put this is there going to be a design: promotions thread anytime soon?

 

[Kael]

i was just thinking... it would be cool if i got an special promotion for killing a dragon... so what about dragon hides... they could be used for armour and as far as i know dragons are magic resistent... i guess it can be a promotion that you get when you defeat the red dragon or maybe a resource that would allow you units access to the dragon armour promotion that gives a small defence bonus and a some what small magic resistent bonus.

I think thats probably to specific. You already get a wonder for defeating Acheron, a weapon for Orthus. I like that they are different mechanics. I dont know if they need to have a different reward as well. Maybe when we get to adding in quests we will consider something like that as a quest reward.

@Keal... didn't know where else to put this is there going to be a design: promotions thread anytime soon?

There already is around here somewhere.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Wait, quests?


How can Civ have quests?

 

[QES]

Wait, quests?


How can Civ have quests?

It has a Gaes placed on it.
-Qes

 

[Grey Fox]

Wait, quests?


How can Civ have quests?

Anything is possible! (well maybe not everything...) *shameless add* my own unreleased mod (cIVRPG) has working quests but only simple ones like kill x wolves.

My guess is that the quests in FfH will involve the heroes but I cant speculate any more.