Destroy Undead/Banishment/Control

I'd be using Current Defensive Strength ... Injured Doomsayers outside are a bit of a liability - so they need some cover and to keep away from priests if they can. At home though, not much is going to touch them unless badly hurt.

Sounds good.

EDIT2: Just for Weird Wrack?

Yep. And that can be changed now.

Thought/comment - another thing of note regarding resistance to the Banish Undead would be Haunted Lands - I'd think the Banishment would have a much lower chance of working if the targets are in haunted lands, and the spell being un-castable in Haunted Lands.

How about some extra resistance within HL tiles (at least those within Scion territory) but the spell call destroy the HL feature? Automatic (or at least very likely) outside Scion territory, not so likely within.

Could be a nice way to eliminate HLs within your territory and knock it back a bit within Scion territory.
 
I think immobilizing is to harsh a penalty, as a low success. Mostly because that means you can try again next turn at no penalty. A temporary cannot attack condition is much more appropriate. Immobilizing could be one step up, and then destruction.

At the very least, being immobilized should not mean that the unit can't heal, I don't know if it usually does.

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I think level should figure in the resistance roll somehow too.

The original was: defence strength * 2 *HP/100 .

Why not make it: (defence strength + level) *HP/100 ?

It automatically wakens summons and boosts heroes, which is as it should be. Since it doesn't change the attack strength of the spell, high level units would absolutely need to be damaged for them to be affected.

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One has to be very careful with spells that can kill. A few mages with maelstrom and a few with Turn Undead, should not be able to destroy an unlimited number of units. Id est, large stacks should have some protection, bases on the simple fact that there are too many units to affect all of them.

How about: Each mage can affect only 1+number of Combat promotions units, starting with the weakest. This would replace the normal effect of Combat on spell damage.

This could also be combined or replaced with having the act of turning provide some bolstering against further attempt to turn. A flat immunity for units already affected that turn for instance. Or, have units that resist heal some damage.

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It is obvious to me that Bless,Cure Disease,Destroy Undead, Heal, Ressurection, Sanctify are clearly divine spells, not Arcane. I know that Bless and Heal are still Divine in the game, just mention them here for completeness.

<slight hyperbole>And it is clear to me that Dungeons and Dragons is the only game in existence that has such a distinction.</slight hyperbole>
 
Firstly, 50% base chance of working.
Only works on the undead, obviously. And not against scions(though maybe against scion-summons?). Would also not work against liches.

For each level that the necromancer is, higher than his victim, the chance of sucess is increased by 10%. Ergo, lv5 necromancer vs lv1 skeleton = 90% chance of sucess. This would work conversely, though. So that a high level target would gain extra chance of resistance.

Each Death spellsphere promotion he has, could add a farther 10% to the odds of success.

If the unit is in Necromancy mode (after killing a living unit), he would gain a farther 40% bonus to the chance of working, making it almost guaranteed to work.

As described, this is much more powerful than the anti-undead spell...

WarKirby said:
Upon sucess, the unit is transferred to the caster's control, with no maintenance cost and no war weariness on death, for a limited lifespan. The number of turns it lasts for is equal to 1 + the number of Death spellsphere promotions the caster has. So up to 4 turns. This would prevent farming a skeleton army from barbarians early. Once the lifespan expires, the unit crumbles to dust (delete unit), does not return to original owner.

...but I do like this for the alternate form Banishment (which would have been for the Evil religions if it were a priest spell). Stunning requires 2x resistance, temporary control requires 3x resistance (as with Destroy results for Banishment). Unit is temporarily controlled, then destroyed. Stunning is harder to achieve, but "control then destroy" is more useful than just "destroy"...
 
As described, this is much more powerful than the anti-undead spell...

As always, with every suggestion I make, the numbers and values are up for discussion. provided values are merely examples. Do you think that would still be the case of some of the values there were weakened?

The general idea, though, is that using undead against the scions should be a bad tactic. As a tradeoff for their newfound weakness to priest units.

Almost every race except the Sheiam should be able to avoid doing that very easily. For them, it would just be a matter of not using pyre zombies, or using so many of them that losing 1-2 per turn wouldn't make much difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't destroy undead, as implemented now, damage all undead in a large radius?
The idea I'm proposing here would allow neutralizing only a single enemy per turn. Turning a pyre zombie back against his buddies isn't too useful, since they all have fire resistance.
 
I think, rather than command undead, the Scions preist units should have what is essentially Marksman, against undead, and a large buff to smack them down - so your average Doomsayer has

+50% Versus undead units
Undead units are more likely to defend the stack against this unit.
Higher likelihood to create Reborn from Undead Units.

This would mean something worse than that the Scions would beat down your undead units - the Scions are likely to get extra population from your undead units!
 
Hm, I don't think that makes sense, though.

As far as I'm aware, the Scions are former humans who have found immortality through some sort of unlife. They are clearly sentient, emotional and proud

The average undead like pyre zombies, are just mindless animated corpses. They only really exist to do their master's bidding.

This is why I suggested giving this spell to necromancers. People who actively study the arts of animating and controlling the undead. I think it fits a lot more with them, than with any kind of priest unit. Just my opinion. And as already mentioned, the idea is to make up for their lack of ability to cast Life II, which other living civs can do with that level of arcane unit.
 
You do have a point, Kirby...
 
I agree, I do not view Scions as mindless undead. But they certainly are good at creating them (i.e. Bone Horde). For me, they are in a way opposite of Sidar, traded for immortality life of their flesh instead of part of their souls.

But on the other hand, they are undead. So should be affected in a way by destroy undead. Protection by doomsayers etc is a good idea. Also, maybe some bonus from tower of necromancy - they currently get very little (no strong promo for most units), and I think it certainly fits the flavour.
But what worries me, is the AI. I do not think I have ever seen AI build any of the towers.
The other thing is - the simpler it is the better. A special promotion granted by building (temple of gift?) or spell, lower damage for higher level/older units?

Also, while destroy undead is good for divine spell, I think it fits arcane better than cure disease does. Also, poor Khazad would be unable to cure, just as they can't resurrect Maros.
Sanctify is a must for priests in my opinion, but only the the good ones. I made a graphical-only copy of the spell for every good/neutral religion (so none for CoE, OO, AV) and linked it to religions and divine promotions
 
Say, anyone remember the "Whirlwind" spell, used to be Air II a version or two back in FFH2? I.e., just predating Maelstrom?

Something like that which could "push around" or otherwise scatter undead, no matter whether undead-race Scions, summons, barbarians, whatever, might be an interesting spell of inconvenience, possibly for some kind of divine casters, maybe the good ones (Order, Empy). It's not the same as tearing through them like Destroy Undead, but it'd certainly present a risk of throwing an organized stack into disarray. Exceptions'd have to exist for not pushing a stack out of say, its own city, but hey, might be something to work with.

This wouldn't necessarily need to tie to a mana type of any sort, much like priests don't rely on nodes and whatnot anyhow. You got a good priest, great, he can send undead cowering in a variety of directions as opposed to sticking to a unified stack. If countermeasures like Scion priests (Doomgivers) stiffening the morale of the stack they accompany are worth adding, all good too (i.e., don't run, fight for your Emperor yada yada).
 
The only issue I have with the whole Doomsayers protecting the stack idea is that poor Korrina has no Doomsayers....

She might be able to just lump it - depends on how much protection is needed from the FF version of the spell.

The (hero) Emperor could provide a powerful protective effect. He comes pretty late, but it'd be appropriate.

Anyway - good point - something'll be arraigned if
a) It's needed.
and
b) I remember when it's time. :)

I believe WarKirby's correct about the how welcome Pyre Zombies would be among the Scions. ("They're not our kind of people at all.")
 
I'm thinking Doomgivers, if they have Banishment at all, will have it only work against Demons. (I'm assuming the spell will be python driven and a Scion exception shouldn't be difficult to include.)

I've given the Necromancers a spell to help out against undead. Not as powerful as Banishment, it should still come in handy at times and I like the flavor.
 
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