DGIT4-Maelstrom at Sea

[SpikeIt]

Pah! Had to take a look. The Mongols now have 24(!) cities. The Arabs will give us Kufah for peace which isn't a terrible city given our situation and it cuts off Muscat from the rest of the Arab nation. Oh and we have only 10 turns until we turn Feudalism. A tech deal with China will pull us some luxes (have to give up Monarchy), too.

China finally has some culture in there western holdings, so its imperative we at least build some temples soon or we are going to be culture rushed.
Also, I can't really see 3 swords making much of a dent on Baghdad. Minimally our attack path should be from the north: mountain to hills just north of Baghdad, not across the grasslands. If they have MDI's, we need every advantage we can get.

A picture:

BTW. Sandrock is up next... That means we have until Thursday to decide what to do.

 

[SpikeIt]

One more pic. The location of Kufah:

It'll be a heck of a flip risk though.

 

[SpikeIt]

Okay. To pass the time, a few more thoughts about our position. We were originally thinking to wipe out Damascus and Bagdhad, then get peace and then hopefully turn on China. We did take out Damascus. I think we've made good gains in this war. We bought a little breathing room. We gained a source of horses (also possibly denying the Arabs their UU!) We can't get any luxuries from them as China now posseses the two closest sources.

We can try and push on, but its just going to cost us too much production spitting out units to bludgeon against the Arab MDI's. Not to mention we are still a Despot and have no culture or city improvements to speak of. And worse still, China now has culture in the west, pushing on our cities as well.

I think we should do the following:
1) Forget Baghdad. We can march to that mountain and find out if Bagdhad has pikes now. If so, definitely bail. Swords against pikes in a size 8 city? What's the point? Even if not, we'll still be stretching ourselves.
2) Spit out a settler and plant a city on coast north of Stockholm and Rey. Maybe on that forest spot just in our borders. Settle while at war!
3) Make peace with Arabs for Kufah and whatever else we can squeeze out of them that makes sense. Kufah will stretch us to the west coast. That's excellent!
4) Rush temple in Kufah (big flip risk!)
5) Also, swing deal with China, Monarchy for luxuries/money.
6) Revolution!

After we are a Monarchy, we can push on to our UU, improving our cities. Even start a pre-build for Leo's. We'll be in a better position for the next war which will inevitably come. Plus with 7 or 8 cities we'll be a lot stronger. #5 may have to occur sooner or we'll miss our opportunity. While we are building that settler, if we think we have a shot at Bagdhad, go for it. If not, save for next time.

What do y'all think?

 

[SpikeIt]

Wow. No other ideas at all? Not even a "Shut up Spike-it! If we don't own Mecca, we don't own squat!"? Sandrock will likely get to this tomorrow and I'll play my turns a day or two afterwards. So speak up now or be stuck with whatever we decide to do to our civ.

 

[-0blivion-]

No disagreement because it is a good plan
I didn't really find anything to complain about, so i didn't say anything

 

[SpikeIt]

No disagreement because it is a good plan
I didn't really find anything to complain about, so i didn't say anything

That's cool. Just trying to get a little discussion going in our thread while we wait for the next play log. We seem to always have such a quiet thread as compared to many of the other SG's. Maybe its the long waits in between turns.

Have we thought about a long term goal here? I kind of doubt domination or conquest are in the cards for us here, given our lot in life. Given our situation, a diplo win would be an achievement I think. We'll still have to flex our Beserk muscles to breathe some life into our lands (think luxuries). Not to mention we may need to take on Spain (I think its Spain), just to stop Izzy from ending this culturally as she seems to be cleaning up on wonders.

 

[Sandrock LQ]

A diplomatic is our best shot(and probably the only one) of winning for sure. We are going to have to time a pre-build to coincide with the tech that will allow us to build the UN.

A conquest or domination isn't out of the question at this point but would probably require careful planning and war management.

And for the love of god, can we please get some luxuries. We're going to have to rebuild our army and then probably invade China just for the spices.

I will play this in the morning when my mind is fresh and the log will be up shortly thereafter.

And seeing as how I agree with all of SpikeIt's suggestions for the next turns and there are no dissenters, I will implement that plan as best I can.

 

[Sandrock LQ]

250ad
-switch oslo & bergen from sword to temple
-activate an already built settler and sword in stockholm and send them to found new city

EOT1

-arab mdi attacks our elite sword and it suffers our wrath
-rey sword>temple
-spanish building sistine

260ad
-settle aarhus, but i should have moved it up the coastline one more space, set prod to spearman
-fortify 2 swords in our new city
-sue for peace with arabia and we get the city of kufah
-rush a spear for defense in kufah

EOT2
-china declares on arabs
-china takes baghdad
-trondheim sword>sword
-kufah spear>temple
-stockholm spear>temple
-english complete great lighthouse
-mongols building sun tzu

270ad
-fortify our cites for defense and worker moves
-trade monarchy for 3 luxuries to china
-REVOLUTION(too bad we're going to lose some of the luxury benefits while in anarchy)

EOT3

280ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT4

290ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT5
-mongols declare on russia
-chinese move a spear into our territory near Birba

300ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT6
-temujin wants 48 gold for free, when i refuse, he declares war
-the chinese appear to be using our roads to get at the arabs

310ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT7
-anarchy ends and we are now a monarchy
-spanish building knights templar
-set sci 10%, lux to 0%. entertainers not currently needed with our 3 imported luxuries

320ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT8
-copenhagen sword>sword

330ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT9
-birka barracks>temple

340ad
-unit/worker moves

EOT10
-english building knights templar
-trondheim sword>marketplace

350ad
-unit/worker moves
-rush temple in Kufah for 216 gold

notes:
I tried to get Feudalism via trade as nearly everyone but the Ottomans have it, but the price was all of our gold + 25-35 gpt. We're 5 turns from it now, so it's not worth the money everyone wants. We're in better shape than the Arabs whose empire has shrunk and is 50 % tundra, and we're also better off than the Ottomans who are last in tech(behind us), but we have money and they don't. Everyone else seems to have Republic, Monotheism, and Feudalism, but under 50 gold each. We have the money they have the techs.

We need librarys, temples and marketplaces....now. Infrastructure is the name of the game gentleman. By the time we finish our infrastructure, we should be able to build our Berserkers, and then we can decide to wipe this map clean.

And the war with the Mongols is inconsequential because they are too far away and fighting Russia.

 

[SpikeIt]

Wow! And there it is. All in 10 turns. Nice play there. China is going to be fun to deal with in the near future.

And that Temujin, well, sniff, well, he's just a big bully! Agree, nothing to worry about. For now.

We need to get these cities cruising... Sounds like a task for, um, me! Feudalism in 5? Nice. Too bad we won't be able to trade it for anything.

I should be able to play this within the next couple days... stay tuned.

 

[SpikeIt]

Notes:
Trip around the civs:
China - doesn't have horses! How did that happen? That means no riders. 12 turns on the lux deal. At war with Arabia.
Russia - At war with the Mongols! Has Republic, Mono and Feudalism.
Spain - Up Republic,Mono, and Feudalism.
Mongolia - We're at war!Duh.
England - We have no embassy with Liz. Up Republic, Mono, Feudalism
Ottomans - Once we have Feudalism, we'll push Osman to the Middle Ages. Maybe we swing a deal. Lacks Currency and Writing.
Arabs - 11 turns on peace deal. Up Feudalism. Lack iron and horses at the moment... We might be able to settle and steal their other iron. :crazyeyes: At war with China.

We have 5 turns on Feudalism and can't speed that up. We're building temples all around. We need some libraries and markets to up research.

Aarhus is a bit too close to our other cities. Should have been another spot or two north. Oh well. Building spear, but now rax. I think not.

We have only 3 workers. Ouch. 9 spears, 13 swords 1 catapult and a couple archers. We have 8 more military units than our cities allow.

Thinking... builder turns. We should get a galley or two out to steal far remote luxuries... They are out there still. Need culture. Temples and libraries. The lux deal is good for 12 turns still, so libraries before temples. Also, should have another settler or two on hand to steal spots China clears...

[0] 350AD
Copenhagen - sword build switched to harbor...
Trondheim market build switched to library.
Aarhus spear to worker.
Stockhold temple (due in 57!) to worker.

Stop workers building mine in land we can't work. Stop roading of forest which we can chop for Aarhus.

Boy are we cramped. Looking across the water, I think the Mongols are taunting us...

IBT
Kufah temple -> harbor

[1] 360AD
Workers working.

IBT
Liz would like some of our gold. 45 of it as a matter of fact. Liz is far, far away. No thanks. Liz goes away.
Rey temple -> Library
Aarhus worker -> libary

English start Sistines.

[2] 370AD
workers chopping, etc.

IBT
Pretty blue boats floating by Copenhagen. Maybe the Vikings should have some of those.
Medina is now owned by the Chinese. And there is land! Wish I had some settlers.

[3] 380AD
Switch Rey's libary build to settler.
Bunches o' temples due next turn.

IBT
Russia and the Mongols make peace. Now Temujin will just have to deal with our might!
Arabia and China made peace as well. How sweat.
Oslo temple->libary
Bergen temple->worker
Copenhagen harbor->libary

Russians start Sistines and Knights Templar (Chivalry and Theology out there. No one down the gunpowder branch yet?)

[4] 390AD
Not much...
Going to start gifting Osman. 1 in 3 shot of pulling Engineering you know...

IBT
Feudalism comes in. Start on Engineering.
Kufah culture expands.
Rey settler -> library.

[5] 400AD
Settler is on the move. Engineering is known by all as well. Well, except for China.
Upgrade some spears to pikes.
Let's gift Osman to the Middle Ages: Philo, CoL, Map Making, Currency. And he pulled... Monotheism. Bah!
Best deal is Feudalism to China for Monotheism and Republic and 2 gold. Done.
Rush temple in Birka.

IBT
Well what do you know! Its a Mongol boat off our coast. I think they wanted to taunt us from a bit closer...
Birka temple -> courthouse.
Bergen worker->MDI
Kufah worker->harbor
Stockholm worker->library.
Spanish complete SunTzu.

[6] 410ADC
Upgrade a few swords to MDI's.
No trading opps as there are no 2 fers avail.

IBT
Mongols drop off 1 horseman.
Trondheim library->marketplace
English start Sistines and Knights Templar.
Oh and they then finish Sistines in London.
Russia completes the Knights Templar in Novgorad

[7] 420AD
Arabia just learned Chivalry. Too bad we have their horses.
From a military standpoint, we have horses. The Chinese do not. We can rush them with knights if we learn Chivalry. Research on Engineering will give Beserks. We can build archers to upgrade, but upgrades will be costly.

Our MDI whacks the Mongol "horde". Hah.

Possible 2fer out there, but we just don't have the money to swing it.

IBT
Nothing happens.

[8] 430AD
settler moves.

[9] 440AD
Stavenger founded down south in between arab and Chinese cities. Wonder if that Arab worker will keep working those hills for us.

IBT
Our people would like to build the Forbidden Palace... Maybe we should!
Birka cultural boundary expands.

[10] 450AD
Not much. Juggle some builds around.

Basically tried to boost culture and work the land. We settled another city.

Peace with Arabs is up in 1. Mega lux deal up in 2 with China. Maybe they'll take gold for one of those luxes back on renewal...

Watch for tech deals. We're in a tough spot as we are outside the trading circle and we don't have much money. Don't settle with Mongols unless they really try and put forward an actual attack. We will not give them money this time, despite their taunts.

Our new city...

 

[SpikeIt]

Smellincoffee - You're up. Hope that lux deal doesn't make life more difficult.

1)-Oblivion- <-- On Deck
2)Blasphemous
3)SolarKnight
4)SandrockLQ
5)SpikeIt <--Just Played
6)Smellincoffee <--UP
7)alerum68 <-- autoskip

 

[SpikeIt]

SC - you out there?

 

[-0blivion-]

If he doesn't reply in 3 hours, i will take it and play tonight.
Discussion is gone a bit lately - i think it is the start of school and the departure of Alerum - he always seemed to start off discussions.

Thank god we still have you SpikeIt - if we didn't have you making points we would be down on Page 3 by now

 

[Blasphemous]

We can talk about politics again if you want us to keep the thread alive.

 

[SpikeIt]

Um, yeah. My post count to this thread is a bit on the ridiculous side. But a father with limited time, but a love for civ finds he has more time to post from work than to actually play the silly game.

I'm fine with you going ahead to play it. We'll still leave it open for SC to swap back in an play afterward if he chimes in. I agree that school puts a serious dent into civ availability - with good reason. Its funny though. I know I had more free time in school than I ever do now. Than again, I think I was able to find more "creative" uses of my free time while in school as well.

One thought on our situation in this game. We still lack luxuries. With our deal out in 2, we're going to be in a world of hurt again. And our cities, so densely built (granted necessary for our situation), are becoming somewhat difficult to MM do to limited workable tiles. The obvious solution is a military one. China presents the closest luxury and since they can't build their riders, we would be on somewhat even footing with them, except for the fact they are seriously huge. Some MDI's might be able to take a few cities, but could we withstand the counter, especially considering they have large masses of troops down in Arab land just waiting for something to do (bye bye Stavenger)?

The Arabs also have a lux and due to numerous wars are quite weak. We might be able to snag that resource. We would need to be sure to cut off their iron right away to turn the battle our way.

Both battles will be bloody, but I don't fear an Arab counter so much. Even if we can just take a city or two near the lux and settle closer to it (to bring it in sooner if not immediately in culture boundary), this would be a win.

A bonus would be to somehow get Chivalry and use it against our neighbors. I know the beserker is our UU, but its still two techs away. And its costly. And we have no prebuild for Leo's so even trying to upgrade archers would be costly. MDI's are fine, but knights are finer. And we are the only ones on our landmass with horses.

 

[SpikeIt]

We can talk about politics again if you want us to keep the thread alive.

I can't say that thought didn't go through my mind.

 

[Blasphemous]

Looking back now, do you guys think it was good that I didn't give in to Abu's demands that time? Do you guys think we could have possibly survived this well had we not first faught the Arabs the way we did at the time we did?

 

[SpikeIt]

Looking back now, do you guys think it was good that I didn't give in to Abu's demands that time? Do you guys think we could have possibly survived this well had we not first faught the Arabs the way we did at the time we did?

That's a tough call. I remember at the time I wasn't too thrilled with the idea. But we were running out of space in a hurry and (looking over old posts) China grabbed that close by lux right from under us. The alternative would have been to build up a force for 10 to 20 more turns and instead attack the Arabs first. We spent a long time just trying to hold our own before we were able to make any headway. The one thing waiting would have done would have made it an option to take on China first to grab the lux straight out. Instead, while our alliance worked out to open some space and distract Abu, China is now a giant and is going to be tough for our fledgling empire to take on.

That all being said, with the Arabs weakened our situation is probably as acceptable as ever given our rough start and the level. The war did give us some growing room and got us a source of horses to boot. Basically, I doubt we could possibly be in much better position at this point, so I say thumbs up! I think I'm more scared of Spain pulling a culture win more than anything else currently as Izzy seems to have a penchant for wonders.

 

[-0blivion-]

Despite me taking it last night, i can't get to it till tomorrow
I will play then though
Every cloud has a silver lining..

 

[Sandrock LQ]

I think we should nail the Arabs first. If we nail them to the wall, grab some horses and send some knights Mao's way.