DI1- Going where no Civ has gone before; One City Always War!

Methos said:
Got it, but won't be able to play until tomorrow.

I don't believe the Pyramids are worth it. 21 turns is a lot of units.

The thing is, we would have 25% extra production and cut war weariness with it. If we pair that with the heroic epic we will have a 125% boost in production for military units, and we would have a great engineer popping out of it. The only risk I see is the chance another civ will grab it, but they haven't even grabbed stonehenge yet, meaning the AI is in a war-time situation.

I forgot to add that we can chop forests outside our borders to accelerate the process. With the pyramids down we will be at a military efficiency we would otherwise get in the industrial era.
 
Lurker's comment:

Assuming the pyramids take you 20 turns to build, you'd have to spend 80 turns building units between now and the time you discover fascism in order to make it worthwhile (25% of 80 = 20, or the time you wasted buildilng pyramids). This is probably likely to happen, and the 80 number is assuming that your production won't increase and that you have no will have ill effects from war weariness (both very doubtful), so the actual break-even point in terms of hammeres will probably be far less than 80 turns of unit-building.

You also have to consider the benefit of the great engineer, who can help get Oxford University or another wonder up many turns faster, maybe even saving you the original 20.

The only problem is whether or not you are able to survive 20 turns with no military units.
 
I am confident that we will be able to survive, especially since forest chops will cut the time even further. Our crucial resources and City are on hills, if we need extra safety we can get walls nullifying all assault until catapults show up en masse. I say we go for it now, maybe after taking some precautions. The biggest risk is losing the race, but I'm confident the AI isn't spending it's time making wonders when it has a city to assault.
 
I'm with DI on this. Pyramids seems worth it.
We could withdraw our units in the capital and prevent loss that way. That means stopping exploring; but our main exploration goal; meeting everyone; has been accomplished.

Edit:Worst case scenario: we switch in the middle of Pyra building in case we desperately need a unit.
 
forest chop outside your workable tiles, that way you get the hammers without losing the health bonus
 
lurker's comment: The cool thing with CivIV is you can interrupt the building of a wonder with another quick build without having to abandon it entirely.
 
Methos said:
So then I need to start Pyramids, okay.

One thing on the forests chop, we need to keep them at either 3 or 5 to gain the health bonus.

Any updates Methos? Waiting on you. If you don't post your turn by tomorrow 6PM we'll have to skip you or something :(
 
750 BC: Notice the wheat isn’t connected, so plan on heading a road that way.

725 BC: :aargh: The Pyramids were just built somewhere else Axemen>Axemen.

700 BC: Napoleon adopts Representation. I’m guessing this mean the French built the Pyramids.

675 BC: Mathematics>Agriculture. Axemen>Aqueduct.

600 BC: Agriculture>Polytheism

550 BC: Aqueduct>Axemen.

-The swordsmen north of the Aztec city needs to heal. Forgot and moved him.
-Several archers attacked me from the Aztec capitol. All of them failed.
-Went for Hinduism but wish now that I hadn't. Was hoping the Organized Religion +25% would help us. Realize I should have gone straight for cats.
-The wheat is now connected so we can grow one more pop. Granted when we do we’ll be at -1 happiness.
-I’m not for sure but if we convert to Hinduism or some religion won’t that increase our happiness?
-Not for sure if they are worth it, but the HG is now available. I don't believe it's worth it for this game, but figured I'd mention it to the rest of you.

Here's the save.
 
Methos said:
I'm not for sure but if we convert to Hinduism or some religion won't that increase our happiness?
If memory serves me correctly, I think we already converted to Buddism.


Methos said:
Not for sure if they are worth it, but the HG is now available. I don't believe it's worth it for this game, but figured I'd mention it to the rest of you.
Well, with 5 FP tiles in our city radius, health is going to be a continual problem for us. The Hanging Gardens will give us 1 more health, plus great engineer points. But, is it worth it? I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I guess I still have my Civ3 hat on and I just don't like to build wonders.
 
Conroe said:
I guess I still have my Civ3 hat on and I just don't like to build wonders.

This has been floating around my mind as well. I'm trying to get off the build a wonder early so I don't go through that like I did with CivIII. One thing though, this game wonders seem a little more involved, especially when you consider great people.
 
DisruptiveIdiot said:
Roster:
Disruptive Idiot
Methos
Rik Meleet--Playing
Conroe--On Deck

Rik, have you got it yet?
I'll take it.

In future; please PM me when I am up. I usually log onto CFC daily, but since moderating sometimes takes a lot of time I'm not always checking if I'm up in a SG.
 
IHT: We are starving and have a normal citizen. Correcting that. Too many units are fortified. Free them and Pillage with them. I see several Barb cities. This is good; barbarians are our friends. They are, just like us, a civilization which is at war with everyone. Don't kill them.

IBT: Our axeman kills an archer. Polytheism is learned. I dub between Priesthood (temples) or COnstruction (catapults). I choose Priesthood as it is a lot cheaper.

1 - 475 BC. Delhi sword -> sword.
Cities are way to strongly defended to be taken. Pillaging is the message.


3 - 425 BC. Our axeman kills an archer. Sword -> sword.

IBT: Priesthood is learned. Construction next.

5 - 375 BC. Use our workers to cut down forests which are inside our cultural borders, but not in our city range. Position troops for an attack on Tenoch soon.

According to Toynbee we are number 4 in "most advanced civ"-list. Unexpected.

6 - 350 BC. Delhi: sword -> Bud temple.

IBT: Our axeman kills an Jag on defense. Americans raze a closeby Barb town.

7 - 325 BC. Attack. Sword kills archer.

IBT: Buddhist temple finishes, allowing us to grow 1 size bigger without problems. Start sword.

8 - 300 BC. sword dies trying to kill archer.

IBT: Confucianism founded far away.

9 - 275 BC. Sword kills archer.

10 - 250 BC. We are at max happyness and max health. It's no use growing anymore for now.

---

We better start focussing on military. Take out cities one by one. Archers and axemen aren't going to do it. Swords might; but probably not unpromoted.

The Save

Civ4ScreenShot00121.JPG
 
Got It! :dance:

I will play it today. It will probably take me most of the day, the crashes have been getting a lot worse lately.

Any last minute thoughts? It looks like we are still researching construction. I have yet to look at the save, but my initial thoughts are to build swords until construction comes in and then switch to cats.
 
Situation Assessment: It looks like we are currently using our 18 beakers per turn to research Construction, which is due in 13 turns. Our city is currently at a population of 9; health is at 11 of 11 and happiness is at 9 of 9. The city governor is currently off. Population growth is currently stagnant. Production is set to Swordsman, due next turn. The treasury is 167 gold pieces at -3gpt.

Militarily, we have 7 Archers, 5 Swordsman, and 2 Axeman. Two of our Archers, promoted to City Garrison II, are defending our city. An unpromoted Archer guards our source of gold. A Combat II promoted Archer guards our corn source. We have a lone, inexperienced, archer that has traveled north to reach the outskirts of New York. The bulk of our forces surround the capital of our neighbor, Montezuma. Monty's Archers are fairly well fortified in Tenochtitlan; one of his Archer's has City Garrison I and the other has City Garrison II.

Objectives: My first priority will be to learn Construction so that we can start building Catapults. I probably will refrain from attacking any cities until the cats are online. Instead, I will concentrate on pillage and some exploration of targets for when we have our cats.

We have acquired 20% of the 5000 culture needed for the next border expansion. Once that expansion happens, we will have a source of spices, and its accompanying happy face, within our border. To further this along, I am thinking of building a wonder. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that building wonders is the right thing to do when you are at war with the entire planet. Stonehenge gives 8 culture and 2 leader points, plus it is cheap at 4 turns. Unfortunately, its benefit of a free oblisk will not benefit us; although, the map center function theortically could. The Hanging Gardens gives 6 culture and 2 leader points, and more importantly +1 health. At 9 turns, the cost is a little more difficult to swallow. It takes 2 turns to build each Swordsman, so that is 4.5 less Swordsman available to commit to battle. Our third choice, the Parthenon, would be really nice, as well. It sports +10cpt and a 50% increase in leader points. But, at 12 turns (or 6 Swordsman), I think it is just too pricey for us at the moment.

Turn 0 (250BC): Turn on city governor and set to emphasize research. This drops construction research down from 13 turns to 8 turns. It also bumps the Swordsman completion from next turn to 2 turns. Sei la vie! The cats are more important at the moment.

Before:
DI-1_250bc_before.JPG

After:
DI-1_250bc_after.JPG


Next, we send one of swordsmen off to pillage Monty's stone quarry.

Turn 1 (225BC): Our northern Archer starts pillaging some of the cottages around New York. One of our workers is tasked with continuing to build farms on the flood plains. The other worker is ordered to continue chopping forests.

Turn 2 (200BC): Swordsman->Stonehenge
I choose Stonehenge over the Gardens. I'm not sure that it is a smart move, but I choose it because it is cheaper (5 turns now that we've optimized for research).

The swordsman that pillaged Monty's stone quarry is injured. I did not notice that earlier. To heal in enemy territory will take 13 turns, so I am moving him into neutral territory.

IBT: Ouch! It looks like Monty wants his cows back. He sends a Jaguar Warrior that takes out our Axeman. Our ax gives him a couple of scratchs, but ends up dying. Then another Jaguar takes on our Archer. Our Archer does a little bit more damage, giving the Jaguar a bloody nose before succumbing to the Jag's blade. Monty has a total of 3 Jaguars, two of which now have Combat II promotions.

George has an extra Axman in New York. If he decides to use it against our pillaging Archer, we will probably be short another archer.

Turn 3 (175BC): :coffee:

IBT: Speaking of George, he appears to be sending an Axeman up from Boston to take out our pillaging Archer. Our Archer will be sent running for the hills! Literally! On flat ground, he would be no match for that Axman.

Meanwhile, back at Tenochtitlan, Monty is feeling his oats! He sends two of his Jags against one of our City Raider I Swordsman. The first Jaguar was facing combat odds of 5.8 to our 9.3 -- it was a suicide run all of the way. But, he manages to take out about a third of our health. Then the second Jaguar attacks our Swordsman; his combat odds were 6 to our 7.77, but he did more than just give us a bloody nose. He cut off our nose!

Turn 4 (150BC): Chopping that forest took 1 turn off of Stonehenge. It will be done in 2 turns. Rather than chop down another forest (in 3 turns), I send him north of our borders to build some roads towards the former barbarian town of Bantu.

We have two Swordsman outside of Monty's second city of Tlatelolco (henceforth known as "too-late" or "too-late-loco", both of which I can pronounce). One of our swords has City Raider I and Cover promotions. Monty has two unpromoted archers in TooLate. Our odds are 6.6 to 3.9 that we will win. Lets go for it! Monty's Archers begin by punching our Swordsman in the nose. This makes our boys rather angry and they proceed to kill the archers. Now, our other Swordsman has no promotions, zip, zilch, nada, none. The combat odds are 6.0 to to 4.9 -- "Do you feel lucky, punk?" Tempting, but no I don't. Not really.

IBT: Now, at this point, I realize that I have done something very, very stupid. Remember our Swordsman that killed two Jaguars? Unfortunately I didn't remember him and left him all wounded and bloody sitting outside the gates of Tenochitlan. He died; it was an ugly death.

Turn 5 (125BC): First order of business: Revenge! Before our galliant Swordsman perished, he drew some blood from that Jaguar. The combat odds are 6.0 for our Swordsman versus 3.9 for Monty's legless Jaguar. The Jaguar dies quickly, without so much as scratching our sword. Tenochitlan is once again defended by only two archers.

Now, TooLate only has a single unpromoted Archer defending it. Whereas we have a City Raider I with Cover Swordsman and another unpromoted Swordsman. The combat odds are 5.6 to 3.6, since our sword was wounded by the prior archer. I'm feeling lucky! I want to walk in the rubble that was once TooLate.

Unfortunately, Monty has a different idea. We no longer have a Swordsman with Combat I, City Raider I, and Cover promotions that was only 1xp shy of another promotion. :cry: Well, we still have an unpromoted Swordsman (6.0 to 3.9) standing at the ready. Let me tell you it was an ugly fight. As I was watching the combat unfold, I realized that I was going to lose us another Swordsman. This has got to be the most depressing thing I've ever seen! But then, ... in the end, ... with his last breath, ... our Swordsman comes back to defeat the Monty's Archer! It is finally too late for TooLateLoco as the city is razed to the ground. Our Swordsman, barely alive (1.5/6) stands in the rubble that was once TooLateLoco!

Meanwhile, the extra American Axman heading towards New York seems to have disappeared. I decide to take a chance and come down from the hills to go after New York's cows. We'll see if George will let me pillage them next turn.

Back at the former Barbarian town of Bantu, our Axman has a decision to make. George is sending an Archer into Bantu to beef up the defenses. Right now, they are exposed on grassland (5.5 vs 3.0), but our Axman has a Shock promotion instead of a Cover promotion. But wait, Saladin has also provided a Warrior for some target practice (5.5 vs 1.6). I decide to go for the Archer now, while I can. Hopefully, Saladin's Warrior will still be available next turn. That Archer gets a few licks in, but our Axman is still standing.

Turn 6 (100BC): Stonehenge completes! We have enough overflow to get an Axman in one turn. Well, since I lost one earlier, I should probably replace it, right?

Stonehenge centered the map. No big surprise ...
DI-1_MiniMap.JPG


Now, back to Bantu. Saladin was kind enough to leave his Warrior within range of our Axman. With Saladin being in first place, I decide to try and help him out by lowering his unit support costs. It wasn't what you would call a fair fight (4.7 to 1.6). They tried to run, but they didn't ... quite ... make it. Our Axman is now eligible for promotion. I leave him unpromoted for the time being. I'm thinking Cover promotion, to go along with his already Shock promotion, would make him an all-around "bad dude". Or, maybe a Combat II to keep him more specialized against the sword units they are going to start throwing our way. I leave the decision to those who would follow me ...

Meanwhile, up in New York, George discovers that his cows have escaped the pasture. If he will let me, the road connecting New York to the capital will be next.

IBT: George didn't like losing his cow pasture. Out of the fog comes an Axman. Our Archer did not stand a chance (5.0 vs 3.0). It was clearly sayonara time. Would you believe, George's Axman dies! We have won! But wait, within the walls of New York lurks another Axman. The odds are 5.0 to 0.7 that we will lose our galliant Archer. And lose it we did.... :sad:

Turn 7 (75BC): Axman->Swordsman

Construction is due in 1 turn. It would take 2 turns to train a unit. Since pre-building isn't allowed anymore, I rework the governor to get Construction in 2 turns. One more sword will be complete and we can then start the cats!!!!!!!!!

Other than that, things are kinda quite. Most of our troops are either on defense duty or healing from previous actions ...

IBT: George still wants to beef up the defenses at Bantu. Another Archer is dispatched from Philadelphia. I notice it is taking the long way around to avoid our Axeman! :lol: I really like this spot on the hill, but I think it might be better to move the Axeman into an intercept course.

Turn 8 (50BC): Nothing really to report. I start moving some of our forces around in preparation for the catapults. Another farm is built, so I dispatch the worker to complete the road to Tenochitlan. The other worker is building roads through the forest in a NW direction from our corn resource. Not really heading to any particular city, but the idea is to speed the forces out of our territory. I'm trying to avoid the grassland because it has no defensive value.

IBT: Out of the fog from the south, steps forth a barbarian Archer. I leave him alone for the time being, to see what his intentions might be.

Turn 9 (25BC): Construction comes in. We have Catapults! :band:

Up next ... Our choices are Pottery in 4 turns, Monotheism in 7 turns, or Monarchy in 17 turns. Sid recommends Fishing in 2 turns! ???? Fishing!?!?! :lol: We have no water tiles in our city radius!

Pottery will be needed because it is required for Metal Casting. Monotheism would give us the Organized Religion civic. That would then give us a +25% boost on building construction. In the near future, that building would be a Forge (see Pottery & Metal Casting above). So, it would be handy to have Monotheism before Metal Casting. I decide to go with Monarchy for two reasons: (1) Hereditary Rule will give us happy faces from our defense garrison, and (2) it is required to get Feudalasm and the Vassalage civic.

Swordsman->Catapult ... With the overflow from the previous build we will have our first cat next turn.

Next, I tell the city governor to emphasize research, which brings Monarchy down to 12 turns. I also allow the city to start growing again. It will take 11 turns to reach population 9. Hmmmm.... weren't we at pop 9 when I started? ^(*&^$(&#p#(&$(&@ Confound it! &@(*!@&*^$! Evidently I hit the pop rush button by accident on the last turn! I was wondering where all of that overflow came from. I thought I'd found a bug and even took a screenshot. :lol:

IBT: Taoism is founded in a distant land. Mansa Musa then adopts Pacifism, ergo he founded Taoism by researching Philosophy first.

Where is that Barbarian heading? He could be going for our gold or our wounded and healing Swordsman. I'll give it another turn...

Turn 10 (1AD): Catapult->Catapult

I turn off the emphasize research on the city governor. This drops Monarchy back to 14 turns, but allows us to have 2 turn Catapults.

I have left our newly built cat unpromoted and unmoved in Delhi. I will let the next person decide whether to send the cat to the east or northeast.
 
DI-1_1ad.JPG


I have tried to group our units into two attack forces. One force is fortified outside of Tenochitlan. Currently it consists of an Archer and a Swordsman. Two more Swordsman are "enroute". They are just inside our eastern border; although, one is injured and needs a couple more turns to heal. Our second force consists of 2 swordsman and an axeman. It is currently just southeast of Bantu. Each of our two workers has been assigned to these forces, respectively. They are currently building roads to speed the delivery of Catapults to the front lines.

Our Shock-promoted Axman is just northeast of Bantu. He is slightly wounded (4.3/5). Hopefully, George will send that Archer on the most direct route, which would be a defenseless grassland tile. If he does, the health of our Axman will not matter. In any case, the Axman is due a promotion, which would restore him to full health anyway. I came close to promoting him with Cover and whacking that American Archer, but I decided to wait and see if the odds didn't improve.

During my set, I have managed to lose a total of 5 troops. We now have 5 Archers, 2 Axeman, 5 Swordsman, and 1 Catapult. The two Swordsman that I lost were highly promoted and very valuable. Losing them hurt the most. In hindsight, I probably should have held off attacking TooLate until the cats were ready. And, I need to do a much better job of being aware of our unit positions. On a more positive note, they lost 8 troops. Monty lost all 3 of his Jaguar's -- I think he may be down to his last two Archers (assuming he doesn't have another city somewhere). And did I mention -- we got CATS!! :dance: :band: :dance:

Our research is a pathetic 20 beakers per turn. Unfortunately, I am not sure what we can do about it at the moment. Hereditary Rule should provide a near term solution to our happiness problems and allow Delhi to grow to, at least, 11 population. With the flood plains, we appear to have the food to support 2-3 specialist. This may be a near term patch for our research whoas.

Well, have fun and good luck! Let's see some screenshots of the Aztecs fall into oblivion! :goodjob:
 
You sir, have done us proud! It is not about how many of our brothers die in battle, it is about how many of their brothers get killed in the process!

I have got it, and I will lead us to victory! Down with Montezuma!

I'd like to note that promotions don't heal all the way, they heal half-way to full health, for our axeman, that would be 5.15. Still great, I think he'll be an all-around bad dude :D

Excellent turn, we might want to snag the Great Library if we want more research. It would also be great to get representation and caste system so we can beef up science even more.
 
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