Dictators in general: are they so bad?

Are dictators really such a bad thing in principle?

  • They are evil and unnecessary.

    Votes: 14 21.5%
  • While they are evil, we have to acknowledge their existence and the reasons behind their existence.

    Votes: 22 33.8%
  • They are often a necessity

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • You shouldn't be asking that question, you evil Commie-Nazi scum!

    Votes: 7 10.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 11 16.9%

  • Total voters
    65

Pangur Bán

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It is a modern democratic myth, oft repeated by the US and English governments, that dictators deprive their subjects of freedom. In fact, "tyrants", "dictators", or whatever one wants to call them, usually (but not always) are the product of the masses and their function is to reduce the power of the middlemen, the aristocracy or whatever variant is in operation. In ancient times and in modern times for the most part, dictators emerge directly from popular upheaval, or else their government derives from the popular upheaval of their predecessors. In the case of Pissistratus, he seems to have been very popular and gave more freedom the citizen population by depriving the aristocrats of their power. The Julio-Claudians are another example; they deprived the Senatorial aristocracy of political power. The soldiers and common people had more practical freedom as a result, because the emperor had to respond to them in order to maintain his position. Remember, Julius Caesar was assassinated by a group of disenchanted aristocrats. To these men, "freedom" did not mean what we would take it to mean, it meant political power for the Roman aristocracy. Nero was probably one of the most popular emperors ever, but he was forced to commit suicide because of a conspiracy of aristocrats. He was subsequently highly slandered by the aristocracy, but his reign was popularly held to be a golden age.

In modern times, there is no need to go through many examples, they are obvious enough. The Soviet dictators emerged in a revolution against the old aristocracy. In Germany, the establishment failed to deal with German nationalist resentment. Hitler was elected through popular support and he brought the strong government that the country needed at the time. In the Saar plebiscite, supervised by the League of Nations, the people voted 90% in favor of unification with Germany, 90% in favor of abandoning democracy and entering a militaristic dictatorship.

The fact is that, with the exception of minorities, dictatorships do not deprive ordinary people of any practical freedom. They simply concentrate the state's power into the hands of one man at the expense of what (is usually) an extremely small but previously dominant (and usually outdated) political class. They can, therefore, be the only and best means for improving government.
In principle therefore, dictators can be good.

But in practise, if dictators become too powerful, they have little check on their authority. They can commit atrocities and without check persecute minorities. But here again, the dictator will hardly ever try to bite off the hand that feeds him. In fact, more often than not, these atrocities serve the needs of the state and have popular support. Stalin's "mass murders" and lack of concern for individual human lives were probably the only means through which modernization was possible. They served the needs of the people and Stalin subsequently saved his people from a worse fate at the hands of the Nazis.

Likewise, dictatorships can be necessary to solve certain political problems. In an age where nationalism and concepts of ethnic or religious identity are the most important factors affecting the stability and economy of more backward nations, dictators will often try to solve the problem by "ethnic cleansing". Here people can often be killed, but most of what consists of ethnic cleansing is simply the separation of groups into more manageable blocs that will cause less tension and less loss of life in the long term. When dictators solve the problem this way, future generations avoid the man-killing civil wars that would have killed millions a few generations later, as they did in Rwanda and Yugoslavia. For these societies, is that such a bad thing?

Society in general is a mechanism for achieving order and safety amongst its members. If a nation is in such a state that dictatorships is the best method for accomplishing this, do we living in sophisticated, stable societies necessarily have a right to become self-righteous and interfere? China is one example of a society that is so large, so diverse, primarily populated by a primitive peasantry with no desire for or need of western style democracy. Here, a civil war could kill hundreds of millions of people. Yet we, with our political arrogance, complain when a few thousand dissidents are locked away. In Chinese society, political dissidents pose are threat infinitely more dreadful than the criminals that we lock away and execute.

Popular views of dictatorships in the West have to change. They are causing unnecessary suffering, and may have catastrophic consequences in the future. We are lucky that so far, western political leaders have protected other nations from the political dogmatism of western chattering classes. But will they continue to do so in the future?

Do you guys agree?
 
A working dictatorship would be more effective than a system that relies on a lenghty process of decision making, that's a fact.
But there are two main problems with dictatorships:

1. They usually don't "work", at least not for long. Dictatorships encourage corruption more than (so-called) Democracies, because the ruler has (or the rulers have) to "buy" certain people's loyality. Otherwise their dictatorship would collapse, as others would take their own chance, no matter how good it is working for society as a whole.

2. A subjective moral problem. I (and alot of others, I hope) believe that key freedoms are worth some inefficiency.

You have a point about the view of dictatorships in the West. Politicians use the feeling connected to my point #2 to imply all dictatorships would be evil and bad overall, which they are not necessarily.

Originally posted by calgacus
the establishment failed to deal with German nationalist resentment. Hitler was elected through popular support
Sorry, but I have to pick at that. As often said here by different people Hitler wasn't elected by popular support. On the contrary it was what you call the establishment that put him in power.
It is not that they failed in restaining national resentment, they were full of it (as well as full of fear of Bolshevism).
But don't let us go too far off topic. :)
 
I have always thought that the best form of government would be a benign dictator. Things would get done in the country for the good of the people and not for the opinion poles/next election coming up etc.
Trouble is, benign dictators are a bit thin on the ground. Who would you trust to be one? And of course once he has been in his job for a while, we all know that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I believe many countries in Africa (for example) would be better off under benign dictators rather than a British form of democracy. Trouble is, you end up with people like Robert Mugabe.

Democracy is still the least worst forms of government.
 
One of the biggest problems with your thesis is that you dismiss the effectiveness of democratic governments. Time and time again, a democratic system coupled with one of the many variations of capitalism produces a higher standard of living and better political conditions for the largest number of people.

Second, a major problem with dictatorship is succession. There is never any orderly process to "replace" one dictactor with another. It usually ends up in a bloody civil war before another strong man assumes power.

Your examples of ancient dictators, while not off the mark, is rather out of touch with modern life. Could any of the Roman dictators, even one as well-thought of as Cincinnatius, survived living in an information age?

The main obstacle to democratic rule is the fact it takes time to build up a country, particularly those impoverished by the previous socio-political system. It's a long-term investment, one that takes patience, and the populace must understand all that democratic government can offer is the guarantee of opportunity, not the guarantee of success, in economic ventures. It also requires a high degree of tolerance among the populace to accept differing view points, cultural backgrounds, racial diversity and religious multi-pluralism.
 
yeah, distators are very bad, most of the time they hold the media and control everything on it.
also, they are cruel with those who dont share their ideas but also elected presidents in democratic countries are the same bad, so, why dont we call them elected dictators too?
 
Depends on the age, on the people, and on the customs
For us westerners, since WW II they symbolize evil megalomaniacs.
Some did good work ( roman empire, some kings in the Middle Ages) some didn't.
Also, some people don't mind being ruled by dictators.
for a long time, saddam hussein was considered as a hero in Iraq. The same for Hitler in Germany.
The problem with them, is that absolute power and a total control of everything generally corrupts them and make them become oppressive or "evil"
 
Absence of checks and balances will inevitably lead to corruption and oppression over time. Without fail.
 
Originally posted by Hitro
1. They usually don't "work", at least not for long. Dictatorships encourage corruption more than (so-called) Democracies, because the ruler has (or the rulers have) to "buy" certain people's loyality. Otherwise their dictatorship would collapse, as others would take their own chance, no matter how good it is working for society as a whole.

Dictatorships do not encourage corruption, weak central authority does. There was more corruption in the Roman Republic than in the Principate. The Russian dermocracy has a level of corruption that would have been unimaginable under Stalin. If a dictatorship is accepted as legitimate, the dictator does not need to buy authority anymore than a President has "buy" the support of his assemblies and party machine.

Sorry, but I have to pick at that. As often said here by different people Hitler wasn't elected by popular support. On the contrary it was what you call the establishment that put him in power.
It is not that they failed in restaining national resentment, they were full of it (as well as full of fear of Bolshevism).
But don't let us go too far off topic. :)

The establishment put him in power, because the people had voted overwhelmingly to abolish democracy (Commies and Nationalists) and they took a calculated risk through which they believed they could "bring him into the fold". They failed. I don't believe you can deny that.


2. A subjective moral problem. I (and alot of others, I hope) believe that key freedoms are worth some inefficiency

What exactly do you believe the "key freedoms" to be?

Your examples of ancient dictators, while not off the mark, is rather out of touch with modern life. Could any of the Roman dictators, even one as well-thought of as Cincinnatius, survived living in an information age?

Well, both sets of dictatorships emerged from urban, commercial, highly-educated republics. They are therefore the best that the ancient period can provide.

One of the biggest problems with your thesis is that you dismiss the effectiveness of democratic governments. Time and time again, a democratic system coupled with one of the many variations of capitalism produces a higher standard of living and better political conditions for the largest number of people.

I think this point of view, although quite common, is a mistake. The support for this view is taken from societies that were already capitalist and wealthy before they were democratic. There is not one single piece of evidence that proves a link between democratic government and wealth. China is the fastest growing economy in the world, yet it is not a democracy. Strong government encourages a prosperous society, not democracy.
 
Zcylen, elected presidents in established democratic regimes may be "bad," but they don't drop people feet-first into shredder machines, they don't use poison gas against entire villages, and they don't divert money from oil-for-food programs to build massive palaces.

I understand the problems facing the democracy down in Mexico, but reform is finally beginning to emerge.

And yes, there are many people who don't "mind" being ruled by a dictator or king. Takes all the effort out of governing. But that's like letting the cruise control drive your car. Sure it's fun not to have your hands on the wheel or worry about braking or acceleration, but pretty soon, it's going to end in a nasty wreck.

Also, China may have the fastest growing economy in the world. But it is not very evenly spread out. Recent UN studies indicate more than 900 MILLION Chinese (out of about 1.3 billion) live at or below the living standards of the average resident of Africa -- the world's poorest contintent. And the United States was NOT a rich country when it broke away from Europe and started its republic. The level of corruption under Stalin? Surely you jest. Uncle Joe murdered MILLIONS of Russians -- remember the kulaks, the prosperous middle class -- in the 1930s, and terrorized his entire country. What, pray tell, is more corrupt than mass slaughter and oppression? Russia has its problems now because of the failures of communism. The black market was the only healthy and vibrant part of the Soviet economy for the 25 years leading up to the break-up of the Soviet Union.
 
The concept of dictators is bad, and here's why. You can't put all that power in the hands of one man. Because even if he is a decent guy, and cares for his people, the next guy down the line may not, and he might abuse his power with horrible results. You must have checks and balances and distribution of power.
 
An elected body of representatives is always going to be more in line with what benefits the majority of the population. You say that a dictator would be unencumbered by things like public opinion as if it was a good thing. As if a government getting things done is a worthy end unto itself, no matter what those things it does so effciently might be. Myself I wouldn't really want snap judgments by one individual to define government policy. What you call inefficiency, I'd call thinking things through and cooperating with others. Making sure an idea is a good idea before executing it is vastly preferable to executing an idea quickly and efficiently the second it pops into your head.
It's respect for public needs and listening to dissent that lead to compromise, which results in a system that is perfect for few, but acceptable for almost all. In a dictatorship, those very few whose views fall exactly in line with the dictator's views will be living in a utopia. The other 99% of the population will be up the creek without a paddle.
Cite us an example of any dictatorship, at any time in history that didn't grossly mistreat at least some significant portion of it's citizens. In a democracy, certain fundamental rights are guaranteed. Not so in a dictatorship. Nothing is as important as protecting individual rights, hence, dictators are bad. All just my opinion of course. An opinion I'm free to express because I live in a democracy. Think about it. You live in a democracy, yet you are free to write a lengthy essay about the merits of dictatorhips & post it publicly. Try moving to a dictatorship & writing a similar essay about democracy. You may not be pleased with the result.

Edit: corrected a typo or two & added last few sentences
 
Originally posted by Remorseless


Also, China may have the fastest growing economy in the world. But it is not very evenly spread out. Recent UN studies indicate more than 900 MILLION Chinese (out of about 1.3 billion) live at or below the living standards of the average resident of Africa -- the world's poorest contintent.

That doesn't matter, if the whole society was poorer to begin with, since your point was about democracies promoting the economy better than dictatorships.

And the United States was NOT a rich country when it broke away from Europe and started its republic.

It was actually quite a rich country, I don't know where this idea is coming from? Not that it matters, since that country's resources seem to be the most important factor.

The level of corruption under Stalin? Surely you jest. Uncle Joe murdered MILLIONS of Russians -- remember the kulaks, the prosperous middle class -- in the 1930s, and terrorized his entire country. What, pray tell, is more corrupt than mass slaughter and oppression? Russia has its problems now because of the failures of communism. The black market was the only healthy and vibrant part of the Soviet economy for the 25 years leading up to the break-up of the Soviet Union.[/

Killing people is not corruption, you're misusing the word. Corruption is where a government official uses his position to promote his own personal interest at the inordinate expense of the state. Whatever you want to say about communist dictators, you can not accuse them of over-luxury.
 
In short-term cases, I think there are benefits to having strong, central figures running things. However, dictatorships are always doomed to fail for one simple reason - there is not an endless supply of people with the charisma, skill, vision, and general good will, not to mention the personal ambition to ascend the throne of a dictatorship.

We cannot ignore the lessons that history has taught us when it comes to dictatorships. Eventually, the weakness of the man or men in charge leads to the downfall of even the greatest empires. Now, you can argue that this is true of any form of government, but it is even more pronounced in a dictatorship because there is one man more or less running the whole show.

Just look at Rome as an example. The centuries after Augustus preceeding the fall of the Roman Empire were marred by an endless stream of weak emperors. The reign of Augustus, perhaps the greatest of the Roman emperors, set up Rome for unprecedented growth and hegemony over the known world. However, within 100 years, the empire was experiencing big trouble due in large part to the weakness of Augustus' successors.

Throughout the first and second centuries, emperors were routinely deposed by their own generals because of their lack of any real ruling skills and failure to win even token allegience from people who should have been their closest allies. The government was in total flux, and little by little, the massive amount of wealth and power of the Roman Empire began to disappear, mostly due to the poor leadership.

Had there been a leader that stepped up with even half of the benevolence and ruling acumen displayed by Augustus, and had there been a succession in place of such men stretching out indefinitely, Rome might still be standing, and we might all be speaking Latin. The problem is, succeeding lines are always fraught with weak individuals who aren't 1/10th what the original, great dictator was, and such a governing system is always doomed to failure.
 
Dictators are good at Getting Things Done. But often what they Get Done is not in the best interest of most of their subjects.

China has sent Millions to prison for political dissent. Not "a few thousand." (Go ahead and argue that the USA has done the same thing w/ it's war on drugs -- I would agree -- but Chinese imprisonment involves incarceration for free speech, which is something the US is only toying with at the present time -- seeing if it will play in Peoria.)

Ethnic cleansing more often than not involves murder of the "undesirable" ethnicity, not merely relocation into neat tracks of people as you describe.

A Dictatorship is not a system of government, it's the very rule by an elite that you purport to despise. If the Dictator happens to do good, it's just a lucky break.

I like that you are questioning the supposition that Dictatorships are Bad and Democracy is Good. It's good to question. I think that our western-style Democracies allow the masses the most opportunity to question their suppositions than any gov't type in history.
 
Originally posted by calgacus
Dictatorships do not encourage corruption, weak central authority does. There was more corruption in the Roman Republic than in the Principate. The Russian dermocracy has a level of corruption that would have been unimaginable under Stalin. If a dictatorship is accepted as legitimate, the dictator does not need to buy authority anymore than a President has "buy" the support of his assemblies and party machine.
You assume a dictatorship could be accepted as legitimate, I don't think that's the case. The majority doesn't count here, we are not talking about a Democracy after all. And there will always be a number of people, which can be small but still sufficient, who strive for their own power or for some ideals that are oppressed by the dictatorship. Especially the first kind can (and eventually will) become dangerous to the dictator (one shot can be enough to let the system collapse) if it isn't muted by either force (which will "breed" new opponents) or bribery (which lessens efficiency).
The establishment put him in power, because the people had voted overwhelmingly to abolish democracy (Commies and Nationalists) and they took a calculated risk through which they believed they could "bring him into the fold". They failed. I don't believe you can deny that.
Deny what? That they (at least some of them) were surprised to see how bad it turned out to be? Sure that's true, but that's not the question here.
Of course the fear of a possible Communist/Bolshevist revolution was a major factor, as I said, but you seemed to assume that "the establishment" was pro-Democracy and just decided otherwise when they had more or less no other chance, which is not true.
The word establishment implies that we talk about the established "leading class", the "elite" of the country. Now there were many things established in Germany, but certainly not Democracy. Those people around Hindenburg who brought Hitler to power have never been Democrats. They were old Royalists at best and Nazis at worst.
What exactly do you believe the "key freedoms" to be?
The more or less illusionary feeling to be free by being able to say what you want (or rather to think you could) and to do what you want as well as the even more illusionary feeling of having a say in how the country in run. The major appeal of modern liberal Democracies.
 
Dictators are by no means always bad. The media just publicizes the evil ones while keeping the fact that there are good dictators out there relatively quiet. There is virtually no difference between absolute monarchies (such as Kuwait) and dictatorships (such as Iraq) in the way they are run. They both have a person or a group of people in power that make decisions without consulting the people.

Kuwait has an extremely high standard of living compared to most nations in the world. They get free benefits and have to pay little if any income tax. People are generally happy and the downtown of Kuwait City is a nice place with malls and office buildings. It is a similar story in Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries on the Arabian Peninsula. Quoting a Kuwaiti citizen when asked if he liked living under an absolute monarchy: "We are happy to live here because the King takes care of us."

Now we move north to Iraq or back 60 years to Adolf Hitler's Germany. Both are war-damaged countries, led by a dictator who totures and persecutes his own people relentlessly, the countries have a huge gap between the wealthy and middle/poor classes, and the people are living in constant fear of arrest for real and made up offenses.

As you can see dictators can be good or bad depending on the way the run their country and their beliefs and state of mind.
 
Saudi Arabia is rife w/ corruption and teetering dangerously on the brink of collapse, thanks to their benevolent Dictatorship. Estimates indicate that about 50% of the budget goes into defense spending... Why? Because the Saud family is extremely fearful of an Iranian-style fundamentalist coup.

The per capita income in SA was about $28,000.00 in 1981. This year it's $6,800. The royal family refuses to give up it's Royal Entitlement Checks and perks, like free airfare anywhere in the world.

And the family is growing at a phenomenal rate, thanks to their practice of having insanely huge families... 40 to 60 kids per male is average, with several wives. Less to go around, less for the people, less benevolent, more dictatorship.
 
They are evil. However, we can't go around destroying every single dictatorship in the world. On occaison destroying them is necessary, but that is the exception, not the rule...
 
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