Digging a hidden arch. site still causes a diplomacy hit

[bbbt]

So I completed exploration and unlocked hidden antiquity sites for the first time. Nice and all, except civs still complain/give a diplomacy hit if you take them from their territory!

How the hell do they even know they're there if they haven't unlocked them. They saw me digging and complained.

Honestly, they're such a pain to unlock, I think you should be able to take them without diplomatic repercussions, unless the other civ also has unlocked hidden antiquities.

 

[Scott Jegg]

How the hell do they even know they're there if they haven't unlocked them.

Your archaeologists digging in their territory is generally a huge giveaway.

I do think there should be a system for taking them diplomatically though. Maybe trade for an agreement to operate archaeologists within their borders on a "per site" basis.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

No. because you still send a bunch of your people into THEIR lands and start digging in their lands.. Imagine if a guy came to your backyard and started ruining your garden for no reason....

 

[kaspergm]

No. because you still send a bunch of your people into THEIR lands and start digging in their lands.. Imagine if a guy came to your backyard and started ruining your garden for no reason....

I don't think the diplomacy hit is because you trample their flowers ...

I agree with OP that hidden sites causing a diplo hit is really damaging for gameplay because it makes the exploration finisher if not useless then at least only marginally useful. That being said, the new special hidden sites that give you special writings which you can convert to culture are über powerful, and in my last game, I just ignored diplomacy completely and dug up every single hidden site on the map, and while I did get the negative modifier, it didn't destroy my relationship with them, so I think the modifier is fairly minor. So as long as you have otherwise good relationships with a civ, I believe it's possible to do the digging and still retain their favor if you otherwise play nice.

 

[bbbt]

Yeah, I under the logic (they'd see the archaeologists), but it does kill their usefulness.

Maybe they can make some additional ones 'wrecks' (i.e. in the water) that your archaelogists can recover once you discover refrigeration.

 

[Krajzen]

I agree with OP that hidden sites causing a diplo hit is really damaging for gameplay because it makes the exploration finisher if not useless then at least only marginally useful.

Lol, when I was going for culture victory with Brasil I finished Exploration and sent my archeologist do dig the hell out all hidden artifacts from territory of my best buddies Portugal, Morocco and Aztecs. They complained and were still my buddies, while I had lot of hidden artifacts.

I will add this one to my list of "things with which the entire civ community has problems, except from me"

That being said, the new special hidden sites that give you special writings which you can convert to culture are über powerful, and in my last game, I just ignored diplomacy completely and dug up every single hidden site on the map, and while I did get the negative modifier, it didn't destroy my relationship with them, so I think the modifier is fairly minor. So as long as you have otherwise good relationships with a civ, I believe it's possible to do the digging and still retain their favor if you otherwise play nice.

...so it is damaging for gameplay, or not?...

 

[kaspergm]

I will add this one to my list of "things with which the entire civ community has problems, except from me"

...so it is damaging for gameplay, or not?...

I think from a principal point of view, it's a very bad decision gameplay wise to have the diplomacy penalty still apply on hidden sites. I think in reality you can ignore it without it doing too much damage to your game, but that doesn't change the fact that I still think it's a bad decision.

 

[Callonia]

Because your archeologists is invisible?

Let's see how giddy you are when Indiana Jones come digging in your backyard without your permission and wrecking that mud fort you have lovingly created.

Ok Indiana jones is a bad example because he is cool but you get the general idea xD

 

[njmfff]

I don't think the diplomacy hit is because you trample their flowers ...

I agree with OP that hidden sites causing a diplo hit is really damaging for gameplay because it makes the exploration finisher if not useless then at least only marginally useful. That being said, the new special hidden sites that give you special writings which you can convert to culture are über powerful, and in my last game, I just ignored diplomacy completely and dug up every single hidden site on the map, and while I did get the negative modifier, it didn't destroy my relationship with them, so I think the modifier is fairly minor. So as long as you have otherwise good relationships with a civ, I believe it's possible to do the digging and still retain their favor if you otherwise play nice.

Actually you don't get diplo hit for the first site you dig. You get "red" if they complain and you say "won't do it anymore" then dig up another artifact.

It's a broken promise, so it's much like you told them you won't settler near them, then do it on the same turn anyway.

 

[bbbt]

Actually you don't get diplo hit for the first site you dig. You get "red" if they complain and you say "won't do it anymore" then dig up another artifact.

It's a broken promise, so it's much like you told them you won't settler near them, then do it on the same turn anyway.

Yeah, what essentially happened was that I got the 'free' artifact from a normal site and promised I wouldn't dig anymore, and then many, many turns later, I dug up a hidden site and got the diplomacy penalty.

The penalty was enough to bring me from friendly to guarded.

Maybe all that needs to happen is the "no dig" promises, expires after some turns (like the no-settle promise does). Assuming you finish exploration late enough after archaeology (likely), then you essentially get the first hidden one free again.

 

[EK834]

I do think there should be a system for taking them diplomatically though. Maybe trade for an agreement to operate archaeologists within their borders on a "per site" basis.

That wouldn't work in terms of game play. You're stealing at least 2 potential tourism by artifact from the AI then use it against their culture, and it's even worse toward friends than foes as you often have open borders, and trade routes. The minor diplomatic hit is more than fair. Unless you're really weak and your relations are already not good, in which case you probably shouldn't be digging in others' territory, than the diplo hit isn't that bad. I've done it 5 times to an AI with an inferior army without getting DoWed or even denounced. I just lost a friend. The mistake not to do is to promise them to stop those digs then go at it again. That's a far more significant diplo hit for breaking your word.

 

[kaspergm]

Because your archeologists is invisible?

Let's see how giddy you are when Indiana Jones come digging in your backyard without your permission and wrecking that mud fort you have lovingly created.

Ok Indiana jones is a bad example because he is cool but you get the general idea xD

Not really a good example. A hex is not the size of "my backyard", a hex is a large swathe of land, and the whole idea that an archeologist coming in and doing a dig destroying a whole mining or farming area is rather stupid in itself. You don't need to dig a very big whole to find a necklace or an arrowhead, so I think it would be perfectly fine with realism if there was at least a chance of the digging action going unnoticed.

 

[Callonia]

Not really a good example. A hex is not the size of "my backyard", a hex is a large swathe of land, and the whole idea that an archeologist coming in and doing a dig destroying a whole mining or farming area is rather stupid in itself. You don't need to dig a very big whole to find a necklace or an arrowhead, so I think it would be perfectly fine with realism if there was at least a chance of the digging action going unnoticed.

Because clearly I cannot see your archeologists entering my borders and digging. Even when I can't see such ruins, but I can see that you broke your promise.

I'd capture the archeologist and then station the unit on hex until i can see it with appropriate tech researched. If I happen to see you digging on my manufactory... Insta-dow. Not even a denouncement, just dow.

Don't like it? Well don't dig at hidden site. Unless you want them archaeologists to be invisible like spies back in civ 4. I'm sure everyone "liked" that poisoned water well every turn.

If you're just passing through, that's fine but if I see you eyeing my land and touch it with that shovel.. there's going to be a problem. People tried to exploit the hidden sites, and they got called out on it, got upset because they thought they would go unnoticed because they tried to "game" the system.

There's a way to make the yet to be dug up artifacts legally yours, just win the land in a war or purchase it from the AI or citadel bomb.

I'm fairly certain that there is tons of archeologists that wish they can go dig up in turkey in secret but they cannot because that would likely get themselves shot at and killed by turkey for doing it in secrecy. After all, u know what happens to bandits in middle of nowhere?

http://www.spiegel.de/international...iting-for-dig-permits-in-turkey-a-902913.html

And.. there's even bit about tourism XD

 

[njmfff]

Yeah, what essentially happened was that I got the 'free' artifact from a normal site and promised I wouldn't dig anymore, and then many, many turns later, I dug up a hidden site and got the diplomacy penalty.

The penalty was enough to bring me from friendly to guarded.

I don't think that was the turning point in diplo change. Shouldn't be that huge hit. Maybe you had different ideology, or did something in World Congress?

 

[blackcatatonic]

As others do, I think it makes sense. Imagine if a French archaeologist discovered the Actual Genuine Indisputable Location of Camelot and came over to the UK to start excavating it without asking permission. Wouldn't really go down well.

The diplomacy penalty is fair enough when you consider how culture-crazed many of the AIs are in BNW. But I don't think on its own it's enough to destroy a relationship that hadn't already been heading south.

 

[lindsay40k]

You can of course just dig up like five sites in enemy territory in a single turn and only get one diplo hit for the lot

 

[Quineloe]

If archaelogists are invisible, why do they even need open borders? That's why hidden sites also count as theft of cultural heritage. The player without Exploration 6 doesn't know it's there, but he does see the camp being put up and Archaeologists digging and unearthing stuff. Then they go home, carrying something they didn't bring with them.

A player would be just as mad if he's 1 policy away from explo 6 and someone took their hidden site from their territory. In fact, he'd probably DOW you and capture the archaeologist before he was finished.

 

[phillipwyllie]

The diplo hit is small, but too offset that create a landmark in your "buddy"'s lands as you get a bright green diplo modifier(I don't' believe they stack).

 

[Quineloe]

The diplo hit is small, but too offset that create a landmark in your "buddy"'s lands as you get a bright green diplo modifier(I don't' believe they stack).

usually a bad idea, as that is detrimental to the culture victory you're probably going for when you gobble up ALL TEH ARTIFACTS.

Unless it's 4 tiles away from the city, then it's just useless to them and they are still happy

 

[Dralix]

Because your archeologists is invisible?

Not to mention the artifacts they dig up.