grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
well, if we can outresearch them in the IA, then we'll reach nukes 1st as well. imho, they'd be crazy to sign an alliance if tech sharing was not included.
Diplo for D'nut
- Thread starter Tubby Rower
- Start date
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Just set a goal of no trades with MIA
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I don't like the 50/50. Once we have 50% land area we will be past the tipping point. Both MIA and Donuts together couldn't stop us if we were there. Can you just see it, we're 3/4ths of the way to wiping out MIA, but we can capture anymore cities, because of a treaty. Nuts to that.
Daghdha
Absent Minded
So what I hear is we tell D'nuts to turn down any MIA offer and stick to our current deal while we hope for MIA to fail in the search for a new best friend.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
yep. I'll agree to that.funny skeleton playing a mandalin said:
Daghdha
Absent Minded
Before revising the draft I need confirmation on a few points.
1. Have we agreed on going for conquest/dom?
2. What part in the Nut and Bolt treaty states that Nutters cannot trade with MIA?
3. Are the previous statements about how impossible it is to win a two front war wrong?
thanks for the comments
1. Have we agreed on going for conquest/dom?
2. What part in the Nut and Bolt treaty states that Nutters cannot trade with MIA?
3. Are the previous statements about how impossible it is to win a two front war wrong?
thanks for the comments
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
ad 1) I am in doubt. It's the most stylish win, but risky. No doubt the two remaining opponents will ally against us. (see #3)
ad 2) I wouldn't know
ad 3) I think it's wrong. And I disagree with Bugsy 50 % is the tipping point. Our TNT area would be hard to defend against the Nutters and to avoid WW we'd be disbanding cities by the bunch. I also think two core against one is extremely powerful.
ad 2) I wouldn't know
ad 3) I think it's wrong. And I disagree with Bugsy 50 % is the tipping point. Our TNT area would be hard to defend against the Nutters and to avoid WW we'd be disbanding cities by the bunch. I also think two core against one is extremely powerful.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
I futzed-up the email last night and got this from Killercane (Casey)
killercane said:
grahamiam said:
killercane said:
and what Scout pm'd back to Robi D...
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I like your option of the straight up trade.... we just need to make sure that we don't get screwed here. I'm completely fine with MIA researching by themselves. I would prefer no cooperation with MIA but I see the benefits of D'nut cutting off research and sending us gpt.
On #1--I have no problem with mano a mano deal except the land part. Share techs etc but I would say we end the deal once MIA is dead.Skeletor with a banjo said:
To each their own at that point and we win however we win.
On #2 The Simpson protocol requires each team to share techs acquired from outside sources.
On #3 IMHO impossible. It is too hard to fight good players on two fronts. We need to keep Donut on our side till MIA is gone and Robi D has ideas on how to accomplish this so he's inimating they will help us wipe them out.
jb1964
Hunter of Fish
Due to geography D'Nut really is in the driver's seat. They can choose their partner for the remainder of the game.
What we have going for us is that we have the active treaty with them at the moment but there seems some concern that MIA might pull them into a deal that would violate this agreement.
Any benefit in leaking some/all of the terms of the current agreement to MIA in order to manipulate them? Or can we continue trying to get D'Nut to play the role of moving them out of the lower techs?
What we have going for us is that we have the active treaty with them at the moment but there seems some concern that MIA might pull them into a deal that would violate this agreement.
Any benefit in leaking some/all of the terms of the current agreement to MIA in order to manipulate them? Or can we continue trying to get D'Nut to play the role of moving them out of the lower techs?
JB they have to go lower half if they already have astro and banking. It's the only way to physics. It's either let them research alone or abide by Donuts (and our) rules.
The way I see it MIA is at the biggest risk because they are just as close to Donut as we are. Think TNT except on the southeast pole.
Right now the key is to get a commitment beyond the Simpson Protocol (end of MA's) and develop the "mano a mano" treaty. This has been thrown around by "Nobody the person" and Robi as well as by us.
The way I see it MIA is at the biggest risk because they are just as close to Donut as we are. Think TNT except on the southeast pole.
Right now the key is to get a commitment beyond the Simpson Protocol (end of MA's) and develop the "mano a mano" treaty. This has been thrown around by "Nobody the person" and Robi as well as by us.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
So let them. If they choose wisely, they pick us. If they don't they're dead.
Here are somethings to consider:
1. I haven't actually played a set;
2. I'm the "loose cannon" of the team that has had to vacation (at least twice)
3. does anyone have any doubts that our turnplayers can take out theirs in an AW scenerio?
yes, I'd like to have nuts on board, but we've reached the 'critical mass' where we can win this without nuts.
I'm just a simpleton. l'll let the smart peeps do the diplo.
We've got this won.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I'm not sure I understand the logic behind that statement. The driver's seat will be determined on treaties and alliances. If we have more land than the other two, it will make us a greater economic power. More land=> more cities=> more population=> more power, more cashflow, more research, more unit support. Charis' Law always holds true in Civ III.jb1964 said:
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
The tricky part about "Charis' Law" is that everyone knows it. Therefore, the biggest civ also has the biggest bullseye on his chest. We need a treaty with Donut so they are aiming at the other guy's bullseye, not ours. 2v1 in pbem is almost impossible to overcome, and our size lead is not that huge over MIA.
jb1964
Hunter of Fish
The logik is irrefutable.Sir Bugsy said:
I was just looking at it this way... If I'm D'Nuts then I can choose whom I go to the end of the game with. To do so at this juncture *many hand motions* would break their treaty with us. I'm not sure how important one's rep is in this game so I don't know how iron clad our agreement is.
And I do think they could choose. If at this point both D'Nuts and MIA opened a two front war on us I think we would eventually fold.
I'm just trying to play the ignorant "worste case scenario" pessimist. HowmIdoin'?
However, after reading the IM between Whomper and the D'Nut guy (current turnplayer) it would seem the alliance will be between us and D'Nut. We're getting some good intel, we're getting gems tossed our way, and best of all was the note of the techs they WILL NOT send to MIA.
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
Unless we are being played I think the Nuts' latent Idiot gene makes them predisposed to us.
I would like to put a bow on an agreement now and here is my rationale.
1) Everyone does know Charis' Law.
2) The Nuts are alone on their Island (TNT is already dead to me), which gives them an obvious settling advantage.
3) We have a foothold on that Island, but have not yet Settler-rushed so the Nuts can't imagine how much Bede can squeeze out of our holdings or how many cities we can actually fit - that is good. We should bargain before they find out.
4) Since the war with MIA is some time in the future, if I were the Nuts I would bank on my ability to settle-rush OUR Island when we start taking Greek cities.
5) They are probably banking on a Space win since I hope they realize they can't take our warmongers; so gaining land on our Island will be important, and MIA is the best target.
All of that to confusingly and inelegantly say make a decent deal that secures peace at the least, but probably military cooporation in the future. Secure our Holdings with reasonable forces and start the Cold War with MIA. The Nuts are our China.
I would like to put a bow on an agreement now and here is my rationale.
1) Everyone does know Charis' Law.
2) The Nuts are alone on their Island (TNT is already dead to me), which gives them an obvious settling advantage.
3) We have a foothold on that Island, but have not yet Settler-rushed so the Nuts can't imagine how much Bede can squeeze out of our holdings or how many cities we can actually fit - that is good. We should bargain before they find out.
4) Since the war with MIA is some time in the future, if I were the Nuts I would bank on my ability to settle-rush OUR Island when we start taking Greek cities.
5) They are probably banking on a Space win since I hope they realize they can't take our warmongers; so gaining land on our Island will be important, and MIA is the best target.
All of that to confusingly and inelegantly say make a decent deal that secures peace at the least, but probably military cooporation in the future. Secure our Holdings with reasonable forces and start the Cold War with MIA. The Nuts are our China.
Here's my response to Robi D's pm and Killercane's conversation. I'd like some clarification on how hard we should burn on chem.
Robi D said:
Mr. thanking Meleet for beer said:Hey Rob,
Their deal looks like highway robbery.
As far as MIA goes I don't think their in the position to bargain a hard deal.
I had a conversation with Killercane last night and he suggested that we slow our chem research.
He said he did not want them to give chem in the deal. What do you think? Any other ways to work this out?
My thinking is MIA has to make a choice.
Either research the 3240 beakers (gunpowder and chem) on their own. They have no alternative but to head down this path for physics and we know it.
or
The alternative is to tell MIA that you can give powder and chem for 3240 beakers in exchange for astro and banking 3240 beakers. Straight up deal. No strings attached and no hands tied.
If MIA has already researched banking then they can either turn off research till Donut researches chem (which we would be doing for you) and share all the cash saved between Donut and MIA say50/50 (or 60/40 to MIA's benefit to get the deal done?). You could say it will take "X" turns for chem and we would deliver on that turn. K.I.S.S. meanwhile we would already be researching metal.
The only thing that would be a concern is if they investigate the capital to see how fast your researching.
Here are the tech costs...
Gunpowder monopoly cost = 1440
Astronomy monopoly cost = 1680.
Banking monopoly cost = 1560
Chemistry monopoly beaker cost = 1800
Physics monopoly beaker cost = 1920
Metallurgy (monopoly beaker Cost = 1920
ToG ? Mag ? MT ?
