Diplo victory since the patch

It shouldn't matter what they think you're after; they can see what % of their culture your tourism is. If it's >x% and rising, they should do what they can to cut off the modifiers.

It's how it should be fixed, but the new code from the patch triggers that reaction only if they believe you're after a CV. If you're not close to the others it works fine. If you're currently doing better in science or diplo it fools the AI that's blind to what you're really after (going up the tree not for Particle Physics but because you decided it would be Internet and a CV after all).

The fix they made in the patch work, but they probably missed it can be gamed, for e.g. by building Apollo and 1 booster to fool the AI, when you're actually heading straight for the Internet after, thereby keeping all your OB agreements to the end, and the AI's TR.
 
AI needs to by some city-states when you are about to win the vote, instead they just sit around doing nothing when you buy out all their allies, even though they have tons of cash in the bank. Was so before patch, and is exactly the same now.

My experience as well. In my last game because of civs being knocked out (down to 5 for the globalization bonus) even with FP I needed all but one CS to win, and - I did. Siam had 12000 gold, could have stopped me easily.

I think the AI is only going to snap for CS's before a vote if it thinks it can win Diplo, not to stop you from doing so.
 
I think the AI is only going to snap for CS's before a vote if it thinks it can win Diplo, not to stop you from doing so.


And much as I hate this it's hard to see how this could be otherwise. This would just tip the balance the other way and make diplo near impossible since the AI has a turn it can buy CS after you, right before the vote. If it's programmed to react that way to a threat of DV, it will do it...

It would be near impossible to win as long as there remains rich enough AI and in a way you would have to get as rich as the whole lot of them together.

Or one would game the AI in outbidding wars when it doesn't count, keeping in store some GM for when their treasuries will be depleted. But even then, it might only take one or two Civs with 1000, 2000 gpt left to block your win on the turn of the vote.

That's why I would personally prefer a complete revamping of that VC, with only three candidates with the most delegates, and the AI's votes getting split according to who they like among the three and how much (with possibility of abstaining if they're too low with all three), but also following bribes and the usual. When no one wins 50%+1, a second turn between the two leaders would take place a few turns later, to let the player try to buy votes, more CS etc..

It would feel more like a proper campaign to get elected, at least, and it would rely far less on the CS and more on how well your ideology is doing, how many friends you've kept and how much you're willing to sacrifice in resources, gold etc. to get more AI friendly with you, if you're willing to risk waging war to liberate 2-3 cities or even resurrect dead civs etc.
 
I wish they would do more to stop you at the end. If you are 1 spaceship part away from science, or 1 civ away from a culture victory the nukes and dows should start flying.

I just won a science victory. I had completed all the parts but one and it took me another 30 turns to research the tech and complete it. A couple other civs had nukes and everyone but one guy hated my guts. Why weren't they attacking me? I would if the AI was in that position.
 
I wish they would do more to stop you at the end. If you are 1 spaceship part away from science, or 1 civ away from a culture victory the nukes and dows should start flying.

I just won a science victory. I had completed all the parts but one and it took me another 30 turns to research the tech and complete it. A couple other civs had nukes and everyone but one guy hated my guts. Why weren't they attacking me? I would if the AI was in that position.

I see what you mean from a PVP perspective, but I would find it really tiresome if Every. Freaking. Game. ended with a mad-dash prayer for survival.
 
And much as I hate this it's hard to see how this could be otherwise. This would just tip the balance the other way and make diplo near impossible since the AI has a turn it can buy CS after you, right before the vote. If it's programmed to react that way to a threat of DV, it will do it...

It would be near impossible to win as long as there remains rich enough AI and in a way you would have to get as rich as the whole lot of them together.
Sorry, but I don't really see why that's a problem. If AI has researched entire tech tree, would you want it to sit around not building tech tree to allow you to win? Or if AI has killed all other civs and all your units, would you want it to not capture your capital in order to allow you to win? Diplomatic Victory in its current form is, let's face it, a de facto economic victory, and as such you should not be able to win it when AI has more money than you.

I'm not saying that an AI sanity check should be done alone, it could well be coupled with other changes. First off, if AI actually tried to by your city states, the number of required votes should be reduced. The start of voting for DV is also too early, this should be pushed back an era. These would be the small changes that could easily be done - then one can always discuss larger changes (as has been done in ideas and suggestions forum), but I don't agree that just because it would make it more challenging, it's a bad idea - after all, the whole point of this discussion is that people find DV too easy.
 
I don't agree that just because it would make it more challenging, it's a bad idea - after all, the whole point of this discussion is that people find DV too easy.

My point is that it's a very poor solution. I have no problem with tweaking the AI so it becomes more active in attempting to impede the player on his way to a victory, it's just that this specific solution sucks. People hated that sort of last turn "gang up on the human" thing, it's what made them remove stuff like this from the game.

It's bad enough that you have to get most or all the CS allied to win, since it all rests on economy and not on diplomacy at all, but the AI plays after you and would have "last word". You couldn't win diplomatically unless you have enough extra votes so that if the various AI spent all their treasuries to steal you allies on the last turn you would still have enough votes. Otherwise it would rest on pure chance, like three AI outbidding each other on the last turn to ally the same CS instead of each stealing a different one from you and making you lose. I can already seen absurd tactics to win by tricking the AI into emptying their treasuries before a vote, like selling them half your cities to win diplomatically.

What they did with the patch at least made things better, as it often pushes the win to the second WC session for WL and make you more often need the delegates from Globalization. Before, all or most of the CS were enough to win. That's more balanced, as it pushed the diplo win to around the time of the "closers" of the CV and SV. That didn't make this condition more interesting or any more "diplomatic" than it was, though.
 
It seems to me that the biggest complaint about winning a DV is the ability to simply buy up as many CS as necessary just before the vote. I've done this as well and it is the least satisfying of all VC.
An easy fix to this would be to decrease the effect of gold on CS influence, so that the only real way to gain any long-lasting influence is by contuually doing quests for them. Maybe the only time they will accept gold is during a quest. Or maybe influence declines faster for gold payments, while influence from quests erodes slower. There could also be more choices for quests, not just a maximum of three. This would mean that a player would have to work hard the whole game building up influence with CS, influence that neither he, nor the AI, could just buy up at a moment's notice. It would also give a better feeling of satisfaction, as you would now have to focus on CS for the whole game to win - just like you need that focus if you want a science or culture win. Otherwise, a DV remains a kind of throw away victory, or a way to bail out of a long game.
 
My point is that it's a very poor solution. I have no problem with tweaking the AI so it becomes more active in attempting to impede the player on his way to a victory, it's just that this specific solution sucks. People hated that sort of last turn "gang up on the human" thing, it's what made them remove stuff like this from the game.
That is of course subjective, but for me there's a huge difference between protecting your own interests and ganging up on someone. When I buy out their city states, I make an interest-attack on them, and they should protect it and buy the city states back if they have the gold and interest. For me, it's no different than if I DoW them, I would expect them to gather their military forces and pitch them against me instead of just having them sit by passively while I take their cities.
 
For me, it's no different than if I DoW them, I would expect them to gather their military forces and pitch them against me instead of just having them sit by passively while I take their cities.

They already do it. They just put a lower priority on this than the human does, which is necessary for balance (no matter how good your economy, if 12-14 AI could prioritize bribing the CS the human would rarely get or keep any). They get more CS from some UAs or tenets/SP, or by fulfilling quests (the passive ones) than they bribe for them. They also organize coups and rig elections. But I see bribes often enough (200 or 500, less often 1000), especially if I took a CS from them, though their favorite answer to that when they have one available seems to be to park a spy. But it happens often enough that an AI will buy back its ally that there must be a code somewhere that, under some conditions (how important the benefits were to their victory conditions etc.), triggers them to pile up the gold to bribe and get it back. They don't do it systematically and even less often they'll do it repeatedly when they didn't reply by parking a spy. This also happens much more often in the few turns before sessions, but the AI seems programmed to make its moves to increase or keep its # of delegates around the 5-turn announcement mark rather than on the last 2 turns, leaving the human a chance to buy them back if he planned accordingly.

It's a fine balance to keep, and it's pretty balanced now You just have too look at how frustrated some players get over Alex's UA (to the point for some of giving up playing with the CS when he's in the game. A lot of people also disable the Diplo Win, not intending to pursue it but not wanting to have to block Alex) to get an idea of how annoyed people would get if they increased the likelihood of the AI using bribes to keep CS allies, or made the AI's decisions about CS too "strategic".

To me it's clear that the solution isn't in this direction. It would become too much a gamble on the higher levels: if you stood a big chance to lose your delegates on the last turn if there remains enough AI with gold, it would happen too often that you can't win by the second attempt for WL, and by that time the AI pursuing CV or SV would have won.

The problem pre-patch was that it didn't happen often enough that you couldn't win at the first attempt (which should be difficult or require active planning) because the @ of delegates was too low, and just having most or all the CS as allies was usually enough, and players often ally the CS for their other benefits. Thus diplo victory happened too early and almost by default, no matter your play style.

They had tried to introduce enough ways to acquire delegates and to spread them enough over the game to make the pursuit of the diplo win follow more the pattern of the CV and SV, but like the International Space Station etc. those were too late, unless they re balanced things to delay the Diplo Win. The patch hasmade it unlikely that the diplo victory happens on the first attempt without some active work from the human (getting the FP, passing World Ideology, resurrecting dead Civs or liberating CS), which is the main thing they needed to solve about it. Nerfing Consulates was the other thing they had to do, as it made it more likely the human wouldn't virtually
have all the CS as friends, and most as allies.

Now it's at the second attempt for WL it's "easy" to win by diplo , after researching Globalization (but it's like saying it's easy to win by Culture if you have the Internet... it's about getting there). That's around the time you might need to fall back on winning by diplomacy if you haven't manage to outrace the AI to CV/SV and it's either that or smash the AI to stop it.

And if there's an unstoppable culture or science runaway, you can then work hard to try to win on the first attempt, or again you plan to destroy the runaway.

So it's not broken anymore. It's still not very enthralling as it's still not a proper diplomatic victory and doesn't satisfy much the players who like a more diplomatic game (like me), but that's a separate issue. Balance-wise it's almost there now, the patch solved most of the issues. It happens more around the same time you can win by CV or SV, and it still work as a "fail-safe" victory, an alternative to destroying the AI leader to stop it from winning. The AI got the Great Firewall, or will beat you to Nanotech and the last spaceship part? Give up, go Globalization, pile the cash, plan specific wars to resurrect a dead civ or two. It's the peaceful Plan B when you can't win and must block a victory.
 
Diplomacy Victory is much better in the sense is not loger a default victory you could came across with it while pursuing another victory.

Winning conditions are pretty much messed up right now. As stated previously here, you may end winning by another condition while going for one. The bigger problem resides in how the AI is unable to stop you from winning:

- AI is quite bad at culture victory.
- AI is unable to purchase CSs effectively.
- AI is unable to defend against military aggression properly.
-AI is unable top play science properly.

Diplomacy "fix" was a lazy solution, much like how they prevented auto-friends from consulates, or how do they prevented military abuse: Lets neglect diplomacy if you go early conquest.

At current state Domination is the most problematic and tedious by far, and I find going for culture victory is quite easy once you master the mechanics. I think victory conditions need some brainstorming and an overhaul right now.
 
At current state Domination is the most problematic and tedious by far, and I find going for culture victory is quite easy once you master the mechanics. I think victory conditions need some brainstorming and an overhaul right now.

I guess it depends how you see the role of the victory conditions in the game. If you see them more as focuses for the player's endgame, an alternative to reaching turn 2050 with the highest score, they work pretty much (but see point 2 below). The goal isn't to block the player, but to outperform him one way or another if he gets behind. I think this is more or less how they designed the VC to work. For the AI they are merely paths to focus its actions and eventually end the game if the human doesn't perform. I think they refrained on purpose from making it too much like a game of chess where the AI simulates more a multi-player game and can really destroy the efforts of the human player or steal his reward for having played well enough. No doubt many would prefer a bigger late game challenge where the AI would focus less on its goals and block more as a human on multi-player do, but I suspect a very great deal of people don't really want that or they'd play multiplayer, at least when you look at all the moaning about early warmongering being difficult to pull off now and having to wait until the Renaissance and more to really start conquering anything that moves.. it's how it looks. Most players want their pet strategies to work reasonably well, and get easily frustrated when the devs make the AI truly capable of blocking them and they have to work to find ways around that.

The second point, I speculate, is that Deity players aside most players seem to play a level too low to get a real challenge, at a difficulty they've worked to become comfortable on and are usually able to win at least 50% of the time, or even 75%. The AI may really suck for e.g. on Prince at getting a CV or a SV in someone's games, but I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact it's facing a human who should be playing on King or Emperor if he genuinely wanted to play a challenging game, but that human stays on Prince because he tried King, lost the first few games and decided "it's too hard" rather than learn how to meet the challenges, so he returns to Prince and moans about the non competitive AI.. because he's grabbing all the advantages for himself and on that level he's able to. That human will be able to put together a good or even great economy (and with that come the CS allies, and with that comes happiness and extra SP which the human player is apt at creating synergies from), catch up early enough and keep the science lead - and with that comes the Wonders, early pick at the archeology sites etc.. All of this prevents the AI from performing, as you can see in game where you suck and made mistakes with you start or in early games when you move up a level. Then some the AI can perform fairly well and win against you.

Perhaps it could be interesting to have a difficulty level or a feature that would give the AI two or three random and secret performance advantages or bonuses. Not huge, but enough to surprise you a bit.
 
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