Diplomacy/AI intelligence

Overall, Civ 5 continues to head towards Macro-Management. This is just fact. If they were adding more micro into the game, these forums would be exploding with complaints against that.

Civ 5 won't be complex combat like that game they 'took it from' (they didn't even make it themselves); because Civ 5 is not a combat game.

It will have more tactical options, sure. BTW, I'm not a huge 4 fan, but Civ 4 wasn't throwing troops at the enemy either. 4 has it's own tactics of a different style (it wasn't WW1 combat style).

Ranged units (Civ 3), Flanking (Civ 4 bonus-like), and Front troops to protect. There will be a couple best ways to use these.They are all Transformers (more than meets the eye) and can transform into boats; that will add some odd tactics into the game with all the other good tactical gameplay.
What? I don't understand at all. The combat adds a lot more micro, and I don't get the accusations that a system that is similar/inspired by a previous game is "taking it from" that game, especially when it's *not* identical. Also, Civ 4 had some tactics, but they were very limited, mainly consisting of 'cheesing' the AI via fast-moving units. Most battles in Civ 4 were decided by siege and collateral damage. Also, flanking and ranged units behave completely different from how they did in civ 3/4, and in previous civ games, and there was no "vulnerable rear unit" to protect, because they all moved together.

In no previous civ game have you had to consider the impact of narrowing terrain, how flanking an opponents army can actually crush their assault, how defenders have to be placed on the battlefield rather than holed up in the city, and the other options this system presents. And that's not even beginning to talk about how navy has transformed from being mostly useless when not planning an intercontinental assault to being a vital part of any war (since naval units can bombard, and escorting troops takes real effort). I just don't buy that this won't affect gameplay massively.

On topic: I hope the AI recognizes "aggressive" actions, and knows when and when not to use them.
 
Yall need to give yourselves reminders using the BUG mod. No need to remember anything.
 
Not to be a contrarian, but I think they are doing everything possible to make C5 a combat game.


Per my interpretation of Schafer's E3 interview, he said (more or less) that City States are designed to mix it up. Left to themselves, two civs might find a way to live in peace. So, City States were added into the mix. By design a City State will tend to like one of its neighbors (who it will ally with) and hate the other (who it will force its ally to attack). Walla, instant war.

In Civ 4, a civ could found Buddhism, send out a few Missionaries, convert their neighbors, and force a PAX-Religious. This was presented as a negative thing in the interview. And so, in an effort to allow civs to act more "rationally" (which in a war game, means going to war), religion was removed.

Further, one of the examples of play shown was of a nuclear attack launched against a civ who was about to win a Space Race victory. The nuclear attack forestalled this victory. Such a turn of events clearly places a warmonger strategy above either a builder (Space Race) or cultural (Utopia Project) strategy.

Also, consider that Panzer General has been heralded as a driving inspiration for C5. Not Settlers of Catan, not some wishy-washy do-gooder liberal game, but a hard and fast old school war game is denoted as a major inspiration.


Thus, I expect C5 to be a fairly straightforward war game.
War will be inevitable.
The march of Civilization will be measured by one's ability to engage in war.


So, what does this mean for diplomacy?

For one, a fog of uncertainty surrounding diplomacy will make it harder to tweak the peace. Sure, it makes the interface feel more organic, but more importantly, juggling the needs of competing factions becomes all but impossible if one doesn't know the numbers.

Secondly, not only am I expecting war, I'm expecting a lot of it. Me and Monty will no doubt fight over City State A (Shanghi?), while Louis and Elizabeth fight their own little war brought to a head by the Medici in City State B (Tuscany?).

From there, my oracular powers grow a bit dimmer.

But I am hoping that by mid game, the civ on civ hostilities will morph into World Wars. I mean, those are more fun right?

And then in the late game, it'll be every civ for themselves as alliances switch quickly and any who pull ahead and look like they might win are mercilessly attacked by all who remain. After all, who launched all those nuclear weapons in the demonstration? My guess: everyone who had them.

Which is to say, I'm expecting the AI to act more like a Machiavellian Prince, more like a war gamer, more like someone or something that actually wanted to win the game at any price.


"So, it's all fine and dandy that you have a +1 bonus for open borders. +2 for the resources you've given us, +3 for all the years of peace, and yeah, even the +6 for joining our war against Monty, we're not forgetting that. But you see, we've looked at the numbers, and well, there's just no way we're going to win this here game unless we start capturing some cities, and sad to say it, but yours are the first on our list.
Prepare for war!
Gandhi atttacks."


All that said, I hope the AI has to play by the same rules I do, but have no faith that they will.
 
Mr George. You might be interested in learning that city states are capable of ahving influence and giving benefits to multiple civs. Makes me think thee a better cahnce for peace. Live long and prosper.
 
Imo, just about any change to diplomacy would be an improvement.
I doubt I'll miss visible diplo numbers.
One of the very few things I dislike about Civ IV is having those numbers and "hidden modifiers." To me that makes the visible modifiers -- and terms such as "pleased" -- misleading.
I wouldn't dislike this deception if there was a chance -- an opportunity to be gained via good gameplay -- to acquire accurate information about AI attitudes toward my empire. Introducing espionage in BtS didn't really address that, but I hope that Civ V includes such opportunities.
 
I also hope I can tell a Civ to stop spying on me. And to find out why they aren't willing to do something as simple as exchange maps.
 
You see, I can see both sides of this argument. I prefer not to know *exactly* how the AI feels about me-& why-because I'm concerned its too exploitable, but I can understand how difficult it will be to go from visible modifiers in Civ4 to invisible modifiers in Civ5 (they'd better keep the modifiers though ;) ).
The other thing is that I want to see both humans & AI alike be more rational towards each other-using citizen happiness. This shouldn't be a strait-jacket mind you, just a penalty for both the AI & human players if they completely backstabbing & ruthless. Obviously the more Autocratic you are, the less penalty you'll suffer at the hands of your people, whilst the greater your honor, the *worse* it will be for you. This will at least act as a decent guide when dealing with an AI in the game. If you meet an AI with high Liberty & high Honor, then you've got a good sense that they'll be as good as their word. The AI too, will get a pretty good sense from you too.
Hope that makes sense.

Aussie.
 
The AI sounds as if it has had a major overhaul (for combat only from what we know, AI could still be dumb as rocks in everything else; let's hope not!) so combat will only be tactical and interesting if the AI is any good at dealing with all these tactics itself.

Bad AI = player not needing to use any tactics and thus exploiting the AI. Or using tactics to simply destroy the AI's shortcomings.

AI was quite horrible in Civ 3 overall, and a little better in 4. In 5, with the new tactical combat model, they cannot afford to mess the AI up, or it will destroy the major new thing civ 5 is introducing. It all depends on this. It will make or break it.

I agree, Aussie, some way of getting to know the AI a bit would be good; to be able to develop relationships with other civ's to make things not so random. They should be concentrating on aspects such as this (hopefully they did), along with combat. They should have had the time, since going with Steam has saved them TONS of TIME!
 
You might be interested in learning that city states are capable of ahving influence and giving benefits to multiple civs.
Can you source this please? I thought I saw a comment saying the opposite; that a city state could only be allied with a single civilization at a time.

[Maybe there is no contradiction here; multiple factions could have influence/minor benefits, but only one faction have Ally status where the city state entered wars with you.]
 
I know I saw multiple comments saying the opposite.
 
Can you source this please? I thought I saw a comment saying the opposite; that a city state could only be allied with a single civilization at a time.

[Maybe there is no contradiction here; multiple factions could have influence/minor benefits, but only one faction have Ally status where the city state entered wars with you.]

Yeah, I can't source it but I know I've seen that a city state can only be allied with one civ, yet it can be friends with multiple civs.
 
Ah, you mean that it can only provide benefits to one, but can be friendly with everyone. I've read that somewhere too.
 
Well hopefully in Civ 5 the AI will be more "intelligent" and I would like to see more "human / AI" interaction not just "AI demands X, Demands X, Politely ask's for Y, e.t.c" Atm they all seem to be a bit....... like a bot. And not like an intelligent being. Now from what we have been told the AI has been a major focus of the designers, Along with Diplomatic City States scattered throught out the world. Time will tell if the new AI system really is .... AI and not just a dumb bot.

To be honhest I won't be impressed till I see a computer that wages war on all Human kind for the fear of its survival incorporated into the CIV 5 AI engine :P.

As they say they are trying to give thier AI's "personality".

A dictator such as Ceaser, would demand tributes, wage war more often than not, be less likely to be friendly and more likely to wage war till you are a stain on his shoe and capitulated into his mighty Empire. Where as a peaceful charamatic leader who inspires only goodness in his people and those we communicates with a good example would be the opposite of Ceaser, say Ghandi. The Personality of Ghandi really needs to be very different to that of Ceaser. As we have all seen, in Civ 4 you can still have Ghandi waging armies against you and demanding tribute from you, I believe he is less likely to do so but still. His personality should be completely different of Ceaser, instead of demanding tribute of you Ghandi should never waver from his personality. He should always request nicely. Obviously this could make him a "push over" so to speak in that you can do what ever you like to the nice "personalities" and get away with it. So at the end of the day its all about balance between making relaistic AI's who have a personality but also they need to have a desire to at the end of the day WIN this game, as thats what it is.

Hopefully Civ 5 is taking these things into consideration and we will see a better AI system.
 
Ah, you mean that it can only provide benefits to one, but can be friendly with everyone. I've read that somewhere too.

My impression, and maybe I'm wrong, is that they provide benefits to everyone they're on good terms with. In the demo we saw the guy give some money to Geneva, and Geneva immediately began giving him 4 culture per turn. I didn't see any agreement for an alliance.
 
Can you source this please? I thought I saw a comment saying the opposite; that a city state could only be allied with a single civilization at a time.

[Maybe there is no contradiction here; multiple factions could have influence/minor benefits, but only one faction have Ally status where the city state entered wars with you.]

Well i dont know for certain taht multiple civs can have influence witha city state. But ou get further benefits for expanding your influence, so it stands to reason that multiple players can some influence. With alliance going to the best one once they have enough.

@cccv exactly so
 
Not having visible modifiers will be a change. But I will be comfortable with the diplomacy system if I have a solid idea if a rival civ is:

Friendly towards me
Wary towards me
Hostile towards me

I don’t need the exact numbers, but nor do I want constant erratic and inexplicable AI behavior/attacks.
 
But ou get further benefits for expanding your influence, so it stands to reason that multiple players can some influence. With alliance going to the best one once they have enough.
Seems very likely.

* * *
For me the issue isn't about whether they are friendly/wary/hostile, its about the knowing marginal effects of the actions I take.
 
Well hopefully in Civ 5 the AI will be more "intelligent" and I would like to see more "human / AI" interaction not just "AI demands X, Demands X, Politely ask's for Y, e.t.c" Atm they all seem to be a bit....... like a bot. And not like an intelligent being. Now from what we have been told the AI has been a major focus of the designers, Along with Diplomatic City States scattered throught out the world. Time will tell if the new AI system really is .... AI and not just a dumb bot.

Agree, it's about time for a better diplomacy model, something a bit more dynamic.

Hopefully Civ 5 is taking these things into consideration and we will see a better AI system.

The better AI I believe mostly is used for combat only. It uses 4 AI's with only the top level AI deciding how it wants to win globally (something like that). So these might not be used at all diplomatically.

From the looks of it, we are stuck with X asks for Y for Z gold per turn.
 
I'm OK with the diplo modifiers as such being invisible. I'd like to have some visible indicator of their general attitude towards me a la friendly/pleased/cautious/etc., so that I don't have to keep track of that in my head.

I'm more concerned about the possibility of the power ratings being completely obscured, particularly if that's still used as a basis for the AI deciding to declare war. In other words, they get to know how strong I am but I need to scour their terrain by hand to get an idea how strong they are. That was something I always found frustrating in the pre-BUG days.
 
Diplomacy in Civ4 is one of the things I dislike.

It is totally based on past actions and the situation, and not on what is best going forward. Therefore a rival Civ, will decide based on religeon, civics, and past insults (some of which are randomly generated) that a mutually distructive war is a good idea.

Attitude should be a contributing factor, but it counts way too much in diplomacy for Civ4.
 
Back
Top Bottom