Diplomacy and the mysterious case of the poisoned russians

[innonimatu]

No less than the United States. And I think any sober assessment would have to conclude that the people of the United States represent a threat to the rest of the world.

The political system, the structures in place, yes they do. The people, no I don't think so. Not any more than people in other major countries.

But even those structures, they are not one person. And they can't just be overthrown and replaced. Other countries throwing sanctions at a few people who lead them wouldn't change the picture, would it?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The political system, the structures in place, yes they do. The people, no I don't think so. Not any more than people in other major countries.

But even those structures, they are not one person. And they can't just be overthrown and replaced. Other countries throwing sanctions at a few people who lead them wouldn't change the picture, would it?

In the US, no they are not just one person, or even just a handful of people. In Russia it is not clear that that statement would be true. There appears to be very little in the way of checks and balances in their government.

 

[Lexicus]

But even those structures, they are not one person. And they can't just be overthrown and replaced. Other countries throwing sanctions at a few people who lead them wouldn't change the picture, would it?

I think trying to "overthrow and replace" Putin would be lunacy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think trying to "overthrow and replace" Putin would be lunacy.

Putin is a consensual dictator supported by the vast majority of Russians. Not only would attempting to overthrow and replace him be lunacy, there doesn't appear to be any point.

 

[Lexicus]

I just don't quite understand how the conversation seems to keep reverting back to this idea that if you think Putin killed the dissidents and poisoned Skripal you must be some kind of insane neocon.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I just don't quite understand how the conversation seems to keep reverting back to this idea that if you think Putin killed the dissidents and poisoned Skripal you must be some kind of insane neocon.

Me neither. The Russians like their dictator. Their dictator occasionally steps outside the bounds of civilized nation behavior, and some political and/or economic sanctions of not overly great effect are applied. This keeps the 'occasionally' at 'occasionally.' That seems like a perfectly reasonable status quo to me.

 

[red_elk]

I just don't quite understand how the conversation seems to keep reverting back to this idea that if you think Putin killed the dissidents and poisoned Skripal you must be some kind of insane neocon.

Nobody calls you insane neocon for thinking so.
Putin just has nothing to gain from this poisoning, and much more to lose.
As simple as that.

The theories about personal vendetta carried out with chemical weapon, though, are borderline crazy.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Nobody calls you insane neocon for thinking so.
Putin just has nothing to gain from this poisoning, and much more to lose.
As simple as that.

Like I said has Russia ever done something with little to gain and much to lose ?
As simple as that

Because that defense is sounding increasingly desperate and illogical

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nobody calls you insane neocon for thinking so.
Putin just has nothing to gain from this poisoning, and much more to lose.
As simple as that.

The theories about personal vendetta carried out with chemical weapon, though, are borderline crazy.

You keep saying this, but have yet to explain this "much more" that Putin has to lose. By my estimation he has absolutely nothing to lose, and despite having had zero success with avoiding the blame he has in fact lost nothing so my estimation seems to have proven out.

 

[Verbose]

That is blind faith I verbally oppose. We don't have to trust them over Russian sources. We just shouldn't trust either.

It's not blind faith. By now it's pattern recognition...

 

[Yeekim]

Putin is not a relevant entity for diplomacy, Russia is. Russia will outlive Putin. And Putin is the russian's internal issue. It is not for other countries' govermments to decide on a country's government. And it is a very bad form to personalize a country in a leader.

Well, yes, but...

Ahead of President Vladimir Putin's speech at the 11th-annual Valdai Discussion Club in Sochi on Friday, deputy chief of staff Vyacheslav Volodin took to the stage to tell international analysts and Russia-watchers that "there is no Russia today if there is no Putin."

In response to a question on the impact of Western sanctions from club member Nikolai Zlobin, founder of the Center on Global Interests research institution in Washington, D.C., Volodin said "any attack on Putin is an attack on Russia," Kommersant reported Thursday.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/no-putin-no-russia-says-kremlin-deputy-chief-of-staff-40702

 

[red_elk]

Like I said has Russia ever done something with little to gain and much to lose ?

Many times.
But never on purpose.

You keep saying this, but have yet to explain this "much more" that Putin has to lose. By my estimation he has absolutely nothing to lose, and despite having had zero success with avoiding the blame he has in fact lost nothing so my estimation seems to have proven out.

Actually, I explained it a few times already. If he did it, Britain will likely be able to collect evidence enough to persuade EU and USA. At the very least, we are risking further sanctions and cancelling business projects, up to a new gas pipeline, which is in the process of being approven by the EU members right now. Relations with the West are already bad enough, neither Russia nor Putin need further worsening them.

 

[Moriarte]

I just don't quite understand how the conversation seems to keep reverting back to this idea that if you think Putin killed the dissidents and poisoned Skripal you must be some kind of insane neocon.

Not insane neocon, just simple minded. He is president of the largest country in the world. He doesn't have time nor it is his job to kill people. You can suspect relevant agencies, but when "Putin killed dissidents and poisoned Skripal" is in the air, you just know someone out there have lost touch with reality. Am I to understand he got out of bed, filled pockets with poison and set out for Albion? Sometimes it is a bit hard to tell over the internet, whether it is generalization, conjured up to bring about dramatic pitch or someone really tries to say Vladimir kills dissidents that's what he does, baby.

Actually, I explained it a few times already. If he did it, Britain will likely be able to collect evidence enough to persuade EU and USA. At the very least, we are risking further sanctions and cancelling business projects, up to a new gas pipeline, which is in the process of being approven by the EU members right now. Relations with the West are already bad enough, neither Russia nor Putin need further worsening them.

Well, lets see.. Vladimir kills a few people, the collective West installs iron curtain, Vladimir then gathers people around the flag and they declare him supreme (and probably holy) leader. Checkmate!

 

[FriendlyFire]

Vladimir kills dissidents that's what he does, baby.

I assume they magicly kill themselves ?

In America Dissidents Kill the Presidents
in Russia president kill the Dissidents

 

[Moriarte]

I assume they magicly kill themselves ?

I assume when such tool gets used up you can throw it away or use it up completely by performing some magic tricks and pinning it all on a person/nation of your preference.

 

[FriendlyFire]

In Russia you announce to publicly kill defectors, kill defectors then ask Why Russia would possibly want to kill defectors ?
And now Russia is saying the UK did it to distract from Brexit ?

This is why Ivan is crazy

The second element was evidence that Russia had publicly stated its intent to assassinate defectors living abroad. British officials pointed to 2006 legislation passed by the Russian Parliament, which granted Russia’s president expanded powers to use force against opponents living in other countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/01/world/europe/russia-sergei-skripal-uk-spy-poisoning.html

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Not insane neocon, just simple minded. He is president of the largest country in the world. He doesn't have time nor it is his job to kill people. You can suspect relevant agencies, but when "Putin killed dissidents and poisoned Skripal" is in the air, you just know someone out there have lost touch with reality. Am I to understand he got out of bed, filled pockets with poison and set out for Albion? Sometimes it is a bit hard to tell over the internet, whether it is generalization, conjured up to bring about dramatic pitch or someone really tries to say Vladimir kills dissidents that's what he does, baby.

So, presidents dont kill people because they are busy doing presidential stuff. Ok. I think we all simple minds can understand that. But the good thing about being president is that you can ask others to do things you dont want to do by yourself. Putin can ask this angry guy for instance:

Judging by his eyebrows he will gladly poison anyone (well, he will ask other guys to do the poisoning because he cant do it in a subtle way)

 

[red_elk]

In Russia you announce to publicly kill defectors

According to NYT, yes.
May be they'll even find Russian official legislation to publicly impale defectors, or burn them at stake.

 

[Moriarte]

Judging by his eyebrows he will gladly poison anyone

What an interesting observation. Please, do continue and tell us what else you see.

This is why Ivan is crazy

That remains to be seen. Bottom line is - he has the bomb, strong army and supportive people, so he can do as he sees fit, unlike many other unfortunate devils who believed in fairy tales.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I can see no more. My psychic powers are limited and can't go deeper than eyebrows. I would not make a successful career in the FSD.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/15/russia-kgb-psychic-oleg-kashin