Diplomacy
- Thread starter Thalassicus
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Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I think it's about the same either way:
- Build a structure and buy a citystate.
- Buy a structure and build a diplomat.
I think it's about the same either way:
I just focus a little more production on diplomats, and use the saved cash to buy other stuff. The real difference is distance matters.
- Build a structure and buy a citystate.
- Buy a structure and build a diplomat.
Well that, and it is more fun to spend hard-earned gold on buildings and units as opposed to simply dumping it on CSs. It's more strategic.
SlightlyMad
Prince
Wow, I just grabbed the CSD mod over the weekend and it's incredible! The diplomat units make things a bit more interesting (they're fun to capture too), although it's not a huge fundamental change since you can still bribe a CS anyways. The massively huge and amazing difference though, is that the AI is actually capable of building diplomats and sending them out! I'm not sure why they have no trouble with that and so much trouble with bribing them even when they have the money, but it's great to see the AI actually allying with more than 1-2 city-states, and actively competing with me. I've gotten into some serious bidding wars where I have to get 200-300 reputation before I overtake them as the ally.
Seek
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2010
- Messages
- 3,773
Lol, I've gotten to ~1100
without making ally (and subsequently giving up) before.
Lol, I've gotten to ~1100
Like I said, the AI can be really unfair with CSD active. One game on Deity I played a few weeks back (just a tester- I wasn't actively competing) Alexander had all but one CS (Pangaea) by 1700. ALL but one (out of 16). Needless to say, he started DOWing the hell out of people, killed all but Suleiman and won his Diplo victory.
On topic, however, I am interested in making a Thal's Balance-Tailored CSD mod. Based on what all of you think about Thal's Mod, is there anything I need or could change to balance CSD with his mods? It makes more sense for me to create a second, balanced CSD to match his mod (as opposed to the inverse), as my mod is less of an overhaul than his. Any thoughts?
G
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I think your mod works out pretty well as-is with TBC, honestly. I've played with it for several full games now and enjoyed it a lot.
The only recommendation I'd make is altering the purchase cost modifier. With the current value there's not much difference from having a -1 modifier. The reason is twofold:
Since there's a limit on the number of simultaneous diplomats it still maintains the primary advantage of CSD: distance is a factor when deciding on citystates to go for.
The only recommendation I'd make is altering the purchase cost modifier. With the current value there's not much difference from having a -1 modifier. The reason is twofold:
- It's never cost-effective to buy a diplomat instead of building one and buying something else. The only thing that has a higher purchase modifier is a Courthouse.
- City-state influence is not an immediate problem that necessitates diplomat purchase. The only time losing influence might be a concern is if losing a maritime suddenly throws cities into starvation, but even then it's something that can be dealt with in other ways while waiting for a diplomat to build.
Since there's a limit on the number of simultaneous diplomats it still maintains the primary advantage of CSD: distance is a factor when deciding on citystates to go for.
About the Military CS, with the new version they become quite useless. On marathon speed i was able to build units in 6-10 turns with two upgrades, why shuold i bribe the cs for a random unit without any unpgrade?
I suggest some thing (i don't know if they are possible)
- Give to the military cs units xp based on the era of the player
- Make possible to the cs to give only special unit that the player can't produce
- Make possible to the cs to partecipate to the wars of the players. Give them many units so that they become a problem to the enemy
I suggest some thing (i don't know if they are possible)
- Give to the military cs units xp based on the era of the player
- Make possible to the cs to give only special unit that the player can't produce
- Make possible to the cs to partecipate to the wars of the players. Give them many units so that they become a problem to the enemy
Hmmz, interesting idea to make Mil. cs better.
Thal (or another modder), is it possible to increase Mil. cs aggressiveness or attack range?
Txurce
Deity
It seemed to me that WWGD had accomplished this, partly by increasing CS army size and aggressiveness.
I think your mod works out pretty well as-is with TBC, honestly. I've played with it for several full games now and enjoyed it a lot.
The only recommendation I'd make is altering the purchase cost modifier. With the current value there's not much difference from having a -1 modifier. The reason is twofold:
The second one is the main limiting factor. Most other buildings or units have uses in dealing with unexpected situations... annex a city and buy a Courthose (no matter the cost), get invaded and buy some walls. There's no need to change this aspect so I'd suggest altering the first part instead. Possibly make diplomats have the same modifier as other units, which is generally 20% in TBC. This way, purchasing them would be an option if the player has money to spend.
- It's never cost-effective to buy a diplomat instead of building one and buying something else. The only thing that has a higher purchase modifier is a Courthouse.
- City-state influence is not an immediate problem that necessitates diplomat purchase. The only time losing influence might be a concern is if losing a maritime suddenly throws cities into starvation, but even then it's something that can be dealt with in other ways while waiting for a diplomat to build.
Since there's a limit on the number of simultaneous diplomats it still maintains the primary advantage of CSD: distance is a factor when deciding on citystates to go for.
Good point I haven't really thought much about the purchase cost. When I first made CSD I had it at -1, then I changed it to its current value. Of the three options (-1, current or your idea), though, I am inclined to lean towards a -1 value, if only to keep the Gold Gift mechanic from being completely useless. The whole point of CSD is to take the gold out of diplomacy as much as possible, so I don't really want an easy way to inject it back in via unit purchasing, unit caps or no.
SlightlyMad
Prince
Gold gifting honestly still seems just as useful to me as it was in vanilla. If not for the fact that the AI actually competes with you now, I'd probably only build diplomat units if I had absolutely nothing better to build, and use gold gifting as the primary means anyways. It seems like it's almost the same ratio of gold/influence as vanilla anyways, you just have to save up longer.
If diplomats are purchasable, I'd prefer purchasing them to actually be a better deal than gold gifting, influence-wise, since you still have the delay and risk of transporting them. Gold gifting would be best if it was always an emergency effort like when you lose ally status with a maritime or CS with a luxury, and it throws your empire into a bad situation. If you just have gold to burn on some influence, buying a diplomat unit should be the better option.
If diplomats are purchasable, I'd prefer purchasing them to actually be a better deal than gold gifting, influence-wise, since you still have the delay and risk of transporting them. Gold gifting would be best if it was always an emergency effort like when you lose ally status with a maritime or CS with a luxury, and it throws your empire into a bad situation. If you just have gold to burn on some influence, buying a diplomat unit should be the better option.
Your approach is a solid strategy, however it is precisely the strategy I am trying to avoid with CSD. I want to make gold-gifting and diplo-unit purchasing much less appealing than unit production for two reasons:
1.) Influence based on production and unit movement makes relations with city states less certain and a bigger time/resource investment.
2.) The AI is not terribly good at gold-gifting and refuses to purchase diplo. units, so I want to balance the AI's behavior with human behavior.
Ultimately, #2 is the biggest issue here since we don't have access to the AI, it only makes sense (for now) that we bend the rules of the game to compensate for the AI's weaknesses, thus making it a more challenging experience for the player.
SlightlyMad
Prince
If the AI isn't smart enough to purchase diplo units, then I'd rather see them not be purchasable. How much control do you have over the gold gifting mechanic; just total price and influence? It might be more interesting if frequency limits could be placed on it or something, or if they could only be bribed once you're already friend or ally (then again, that might just make the AI even worse at it).
Just cost, the gold:influence ratio and the rate of decline for this ratio. Frequency limits would be nice (ideally, as well, if they did more than just gave influence i.e. 'Build Embassy' made diplomatic missions via units give more influence, etc.).
The key here is that the AI doesn't do well with the vanilla system, but does a really good job with the diplo-unit system. It is odd, but true. All considerations of city state diplomacy have to acknowledge this or the diplo victory remains an 'easy' win for humans.
SlightlyMad
Prince
I'd suggest going ever further with the gold:influence ratio and rate of decline then. Right now they still make bribing pretty much usable as a way of influencing city-states if you have a rich empire. I'd prefer it if they felt more like something you'd only do in an absolute emergency.
edit: Oh and one sort-of incompatibility I've noticed with TBC is the diplomacy national wonder (forget the name of it) still requires a diplomat building in every city. Not sure if just that would be worth maintaining a 2nd version of the mod though.
edit: Oh and one sort-of incompatibility I've noticed with TBC is the diplomacy national wonder (forget the name of it) still requires a diplomat building in every city. Not sure if just that would be worth maintaining a 2nd version of the mod though.
Dunkah
Emperor
I would love to see the bribes something that the City State asks for as a mission. Oh we need money... first one to get it to us gets influence.
Same thing with particular units. Oh, we need a Catapult to protect our lands. First one to get it to us gets influence.
Much better than, Hmmm I have 500 gold kicking around, who can I pay off for influence.
Same thing with particular units. Oh, we need a Catapult to protect our lands. First one to get it to us gets influence.
Much better than, Hmmm I have 500 gold kicking around, who can I pay off for influence.
SlightlyMad
Prince
It's always bugged me that even when they specifically ask you for units as aid in a war, the reward for gifting them is completely inconsequential.
orangecape
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2010
- Messages
- 90
Thal tried making the influence from gifting units big awhile ago (10 per unit) but that had its own problems. It was super powerful to get a big city producing a scout every turn and just spam the CS with scouts for massive influence. Obviously if we could make it such that a CS who asks for units gives a lot of influence for real, current military units that would be great but for now we are stuck with a fixed value which is terribly abusable.
I very much agree with the comments about throwing gold at city states still being a good idea with CSD. It is much more efficient to use production to make diplomats but I still found myself buying off several CS who bordered with a AI I was going to attack and effectively getting to use all of their stored up units for my war in addition to my own. Producing diplomatic units is great but the current gold settings make it still viable and even optimal to throw around tons of gold at CSs right before wars or over long distances. Ideally I would want the amount of influence gained per gold to be a lot lower.
I very much agree with the comments about throwing gold at city states still being a good idea with CSD. It is much more efficient to use production to make diplomats but I still found myself buying off several CS who bordered with a AI I was going to attack and effectively getting to use all of their stored up units for my war in addition to my own. Producing diplomatic units is great but the current gold settings make it still viable and even optimal to throw around tons of gold at CSs right before wars or over long distances. Ideally I would want the amount of influence gained per gold to be a lot lower.
Rather thank tinker with the numbers, anyone have any hard ratios they would like me to test out with CSD? Just drop the XML here so we can give it a try. I'm terribly busy with teaching (had an extra course dumped on me mid-semester because of a sick colleague), otherwise I would tinker with the numbers myself. The best numbers get nods in the next version of CSD! 
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