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Discussion about Babylon

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Manol0, Dec 3, 2020.

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  1. gcampono

    gcampono Chieftain

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    I must rectify my previous post: i played another babylon game and i shaved 25 turns from my fastest win with other civs (175 turn deity domination all standard continents, nothing exceptional as i’m not a good player, but the goal is to compare civs). Of course having both horses and iron helps a lot.

    It seems really overpowered, but it’s fun.

    I also tried it in multyplayer and rolled over my neighbor. Even worse than other civs.
     
  2. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Babylon is evidently strong, we've known that since the First Look, but this thread is about:

    1 - a) Field Cannons and b) 16 Pop, at Turn 130, prove Babylon is too OP, so much so that it needs a nerf.
    Both have been demonstrated to be present in games without Hammurabi, therefore neither of those two points stand.

    2 - Should Babylon's ability be changed?
    The people who keep accusing it of being "so OP that needs to be changed" insist on the idea of a direct nerf to Babylon's science ability.

    Yet what I do read not only here but also on reddit is that most people are happy with Babylon because it's fun to play.
    ---

    Finally, in the event of a balance to Babylon, it should never touch its identity ability because that would ruin the Civ.

    Here's an idea: Inspirations only boost 25%. If all Inspirations in an Era are triggered, immediately boost an additional 25% to all researchable Civics in that Era.

    This is an example of an indirect nerf, but one that doubles down on Babylon's gameplay focused on boosts, rather than remove from it. Eurekas are easier but Inspirations trickier. It makes it harder to achieve full bonuses in the Civic tree, but the best players would still manage to overcome the challenge.

    This kind of asymmetry is what we got with Mali and Maya.
     
  3. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    This thread is definitely getting a little bit personal, which is a shame as it's a topic I'd like for the devs to be paying attention to...

    Enough people are enjoying the eureka boost style of gameplay that I doubt it's going anywhere, and being honest it would be a shame to ruin a gameplay style which many people enjoy even if it doesn't appeal to me personally...

    At the same time, I think everyone has to agree that good players can get some pretty ludicrous unlocks very early. It's easy to see how that would be frustrating to players who enjoy multiplayer or are trying to optimize their performance.

    Maybe the way to square this circle would be how to adjust the early game eurekas that give Babylon out-of-era units so that they are significantly tougher to score. Machinery would probably be the primary one to make harder in my opinion as getting 3 archers is pretty standard on higher difficulties.

    Put a few more speedbumps in the way of early game eurekas and they make Babylon's era skipping seems less egregious. It may also serve to make deity more challenging overall. Though you do run into the problem of punishing other civs to make Babylon more balanced... Thoughts?
     
    Elhoim, Kjimmet, Vargas1 and 3 others like this.
  4. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    What skillful players can achieve with standard civs can be easily obtained by a very average player with Babylon. I think that qualifies as broken/OP. Where the line goes between a "very good civ" and "OP" is somewhat uninteresting. It´s in the eye of the beholder and it´s not that Firaxis will nerf depending on what we agree on in this thread.
     
  5. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Yep, also your solution is reasonable.

    I completely agree Eurekas are too easy, especially the ones which barely require any effort (like writing), but that's a complaint I've had for a very long time. I'm not a fan of the changes in the upcoming patch which make eurekas even easier.

    I'd need evidence of that first.
     
  6. Abaxial

    Abaxial King

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    I feel it would be difficult to nerf Babylon without it losing its raison d'etre. What is needed, which many have called out for, is a way of excluding civs you don't like from the random pool. I'm sorry this wasn't included in the December update.
     
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  7. Equilin

    Equilin Prince

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    I dont think those players warrant a balance. What i know of the MP community is that they always have their own balance mods and rules anyway since imbalance is everywhere already to them, so MP balance should be up to them, not devs.
     
  8. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    I don´t know what would serve you as evidence if you are unable to eureka future techs very early game when you play the game yourself.
     
  9. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    MP players paid the same for a game as everyone else, and they are already in the running for 'most ignored playerbase' (modders asking for source code probably take #1 spot). It seems unfair to me to suggest they don't deserve something or should have to ignore a chunk of the game in order to play...

    I guess to an extent they have to be given how limited resources are early on... But I think we can already see the choke-points on Babylon's favourite tech paths and maybe firaxis target those eurekas?
     
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  10. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    They can always just set up a game without Babylon. It's not like you're forced to deal with them if you don't want to.
     
    Enfant_Sauvage likes this.
  11. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Sorry, I'm not following.

    Anyway, I'd simply need to see an average player with Babylon doing as well as a skilled player with another civ. I see the claim, but not the evidence.

    I have little doubt an average player playing Hammurabi will do better than the same average player playing Spain, but I very much doubt he could beat a skilled payer.
     
  12. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    That seems unfair for the multiplayer crowd and, honestly for the optimizers, knowing some other civ could do it better defeats the whole point, if they leave them out?

    This is coming from someone who doesn't have the patience to be an optimizer, and whose multiplayer game style is non-serious team games with friends. My original post was trying to see things from both points of view and asking if there was a route the devs could take to keep everyone mostly satisfied. Babylon is nothing if not polarizing...
     
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  13. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Well. Then we aren't really disagreeing. But to me, I compare what any player would achieve with Babylon compared to what the same player can achieve with other civs. And if the Babylon results are waaay better, I would say it's OP.
     
  14. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Most players probably tech much faster with Korea. Are they OP? Should they be nerfed?
     
    Equilin and 8housesofelixir like this.
  15. Golkian

    Golkian Chieftain

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    Well, we know that Firaxis is monitoring the forums, the same with reddit, so the discussion is relevant also for Firaxis. However, I think they do not look so much on how many people bring forth an argument how loud and how many times, but instead if the arguments hold.

    The conflict I see on this one is with MP, as mentioned before. If Civ 6 would have been Age of Empires, Babylon would have been nerfed already.

    I do not want Babylon basic mechanic to be nerfed, since I think its fun. XD

    I loved AoE and played it mainly in MP. I love Civ 6 at least as much, but never play MP. That is why I enjoy it as it is.

    IMHO fixing Babylon for MP is very hard. A Civ picker is the quickest solution here. But maybe there is another approach (see below).

    I like the idea, but I think something like this might a thing for another, new civ. I like the simplicity of the approach of Babylon.

    Tech eurekas are usually depending on gold/production
    The only way Babylon could maybe nerfed is as a side of effect of reviewing the eurekas: If a tech can be eureka'd by building something that is only available due to having another tech, this makes the eureka only depending on either gold/production (buying/producing the unit/building required for the tech) or great person points (e.g. a great engineer to fast produce a wonder). Since we can blitz to industrial zones by building 3 mines, we have a more production with Babylon early.

    Suggestion: Check, which critical eurekas could be changed to depend on the civic tree
    But whenever we have dependency to the Civic tree, the blitzing is prevented. So maybe there are one or two eurekas which could effectivly be tied to the Civic tree to
    a) slow down Babylon
    b) but which would also make more sense for all Civs and improve the worth of Civic tree.

    Possible techs to change: Metal Casting & Castles => We do not even need more dependencies on the civic tree!
    I would suggest to change the eureka for Metal Casting. Currently its eureka is "Own 2 crossbows". This is a boring eureka, since it is essentially the same as the eureka for Machinery, which is "Own 3 archers". It's just a little bit more expensive to get (500 gold in upgrades to archers compared to 180 gold for upgrade 3 Slingers to Archers - without "Professional Army" policy, of course).

    The most appealing alternative eureka for Metal Casting IMHO would be to swap it with the eureka for Castles, which is "Adopt Government with 6 inherent policy Slots": The Castles tech does not give very powerful things (Medieval Walls, Coursers, ...) and owning "2 crossbows" is complementary, even most of the times you get the eureka for a tech by doing a thing from a previous era. Well, Castles tech is medieval, and so is machinery, but "6 policy slot government" is also medieval: Monarchy (from Divine Right). You might say, that eurekas should somehow make sense from a story telling perspective. Well for these two techs IMO the swapping does not hurt: 2 crossbows do not make a bombard, and a complex government does not make a Courser -> the eurekas are currently not very meaningful, so we can also swap them around.

    That single change would both prevent super early Pike&Shot, Bombards, and therefore Field Cannons (you can see this for my "dependency process graph", or whatever you want to call it, above). You would need to invest a lot more in culture to get to that, and it would delay getting to these units in a senseful way, which I would like.

    New patch makes some eurekas easier to get
    This is something a little bit disturbing in the light of the current discussion, since both the eureka for Industrialization and Refining have been nerfed in the next patch. Now you only need 2 workshops for Industrialization and 1 Coal Power Plant for Refining. This makes battleships easier to get for Babylon. Still, all of the stuff is expensive to build or buy, but I would not have asked for this change.

    But since we do not have the patch, yet, we still need to playtest how it feels. Maybe other things have been changed, complementarily, and this is just fine.

    Still, the change to Metal Casting would be something really effective, while being very simple, the more I think about it. No big change for anyone, but an effective blocker for Babylon while keeping its simplicity of its basic mechanic, which I like so much.


    Edit: To be on the very defensive safe side, you could change the Metal Casting eureka also to "Have an military alliance", but I think this is too hard to get...
     
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  16. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Very good and well thought out suggestion. Tying some key - mostly medieval I guess - eurekas to the civic tree or developments which come from it would help prevent some of the early out-of-era rush strategies while still letting Babylon be Babylon...
     
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  17. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    Korea is a very strong civ. On average a player should get better results with Korea compared to playing other civs. But so much better results that they are waaay better? I would say no. Need for nerf, maybe. Babylon-level need for nerf, no.

    And of course. I am just saying that Babylon is too strong. That doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Could still be fun. You can always exclude them.

    I already exclude Gilgabro as AI. Too easy with insta friendship.
     
  18. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    ...which has been one of my points all along. You don't have to play with or against any civilization you don't want to. If you think they're OP leave them out of your games. On the other hand, if you want more of a challenge start a game with a bunch of stronger AI. People can customize their own experiences and I don't think it's right to make adjustments to everybody's else's game (by nerfing Babylon, for example) because some people personally don't care for it.
     
  19. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    'Leave them out of your games' fails on multiple levels. There is no veto civ button, multiplayer exists, and you are just ignoring the issues.

    Also, getting the right Eurekas for Babylon is not hard if you plan even slightly ahead.
     
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  20. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

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    Can we get a response after you tried the save file you asked for please? Did they do so well because they played on Settler difficulty and lied to you about it? Is it because India is so OP and the civ you were playing (Germany) is so underpowered? Maybe it is India is the hidden OP civ after all. And Germany can't even generate 20 culture at turn 130, what a weak civ, definitely in need of a buff. I am holding my breath to hear your expertise on this.
    Don't worry though, whatever you may find, salty mud will still be there giving you a pat on the back, throwing insults and blocking people for you, after all, like you said, he is the only sensible person in this thread :)
     
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