Discussion about Shoshone in BNW

[PrinceFartsalot]

I am excited to play as the shoshone and I plan to play them or Morocco first. I think I will go with shoshone because their UA doesn't change the new features in BNW so I can experience these new features as they intended to be implemented, unlike Morocco's bonus to trade routes.

 

[Liex]

To be fair, it's only one part of their UA. Founding cities with extra territory is pretty unique.

To me, what's pretty unique about them is the Scout replacer and its ability. The extra territory is unique in the sense it's new (unlike the combat bonus in friendly territory), but it's not something that will deeply change and define how you should play them (unlike Austria, Indonesia etc.). That's not necessarily a bad thing, but poor America may end up being a weak and boring choice...

 

[gunnergoz]

What I think some are missing with the "more territory upon founding" UA is that there may well be an increased cost to expand beyond that initial two-hex radius. So you may start bigger, but that does not necessarily mean you will expand to your third ring of hexes any faster than any other civ. The bonus really is only useful in the beginning...powerful, to be sure, but not a game changer.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Shoshone's UA definitely falls under the "luxury boost" type in that there isn't much thinking involved - the UA thinks for itself and creates the cushion for you for the most part.

(When I say luxury boost, I mean as opposed to a "strategic boost" - such as Poland where you have to pick your social policies accordingly - or as opposed to a "variable boost" - such as Indonesia where you still have to pick your poison accordingly, but taking into heavy account the variables. You work hard for your cushion.)

The above is why I'm glad they gave Shoshone a UU (Pathfinder) that forces you to actively rush your way to ruins. It doesn't last long, but if they gave two UUs with "luxury" boosts then Shoshone might be too boring.

This is why Zulu, I believe, polled the worst in those recent poll threads. They are the only new civ that is out-and-out full of "luxury boosts." UA thinks for itself. So do the UU even, for the most part.

 

[SnowKomodo]

^^Not trying to make "luxury boosts" sound inferior. They are fun all the same. Just different

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I'm playing as the Shoshone first, as soon as BNW downloads. It just suits my playing style to a "T". Let's not forget the "upgrade unit" that's found in ruins; a couple of those on, say, an early archer or swordsman would be quite good.

 

[Talcove]

I'm playing as the Shoshone first, as soon as BNW downloads. It just suits my playing style to a "T". Let's not forget the "upgrade unit" that's found in ruins; a couple of those on, say, an early archer or swordsman would be quite good.

ONLY the Pathfinder may choose their ancient ruin goodie, so you'll only be upgrading to archers.

 

[Arachnofiend]

What I think some are missing with the "more territory upon founding" UA is that there may well be an increased cost to expand beyond that initial two-hex radius. So you may start bigger, but that does not necessarily mean you will expand to your third ring of hexes any faster than any other civ. The bonus really is only useful in the beginning...powerful, to be sure, but not a game changer.

I don't see any reason to believe this is true? If someone is familiar with the code and can say whether the rate of expansion is based on number of tiles or number of tiles acquired since settlement that would be helpful.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

ONLY the Pathfinder may choose their ancient ruin goodie, so you'll only be upgrading to archers.

Ah...well, there you go then .

 

[Emperor Joker]

That would still be good. A crossbowman in the ancient era that can traverse rough terrain? Tell me you couldn't squeeze some use out of that.

 

[God of Kings]

That would still be good. A crossbowman in the ancient era that can traverse rough terrain? Tell me you couldn't squeeze some use out of that.

A unit can be upgraded from ruins only once per unit.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Ok, to gather some constructive things from the previous thread and something new here:

1. There's a discussion about how much land new city get. My bet is a full circle, to make Shoshones balanced with other BNW civs.

2. It's questionable how choosing benefits works. It's possible, for example, what you'll be presented with 3 random options to choose from.

3. Interesting thing to think about is gold bonus, as the amount of gold could vary. Possible variants:
- Fixed amount.
- Random amount, shown in the bonus selection pop-up.
- Random amount not shown in bonus selection pop-up.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

A unit can be upgraded from ruins only once per unit.

Is that right? I'm sure I've had some units upgrade a couple of times.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Is that right? I'm sure I've had some units upgrade a couple of times.

In the initial version of the game units were able to upgrade multiple times, which leaded to some ridiculous results. So, in one of the first patches this was fixed and now you could upgrade any unit in goody hut only once.

 

[JtW]

In the initial version of the game units were able to upgrade multiple times, which leaded to some ridiculous results. So, in one of the first patches this was fixed and now you could upgrade any unit in goody hut only once.

It still leads to ridiculous results sometimes, though. If you play on a map with an empty new world on it you tend to keep popping ruins well into the industrial era. I've already had upgrades to Riflemen and Antitank from the ruins. I felt like I found an alien weapon repository

Back on topic: I don't know why everybody assumes they will be given a full ring. There is a built in mechanic by which the game selects the next tile to be added to the city. It could as well be used here the instant the city is created. So there is nothing stopping Firaxis from Shoshone getting 1 or 2 or 5 or whatever number of tiles for new cities.

 

[loserforsale]

Shoshone + Religious Settlements + Tradition Opener? Go forward settling on people, the bonus in home territory should allow you to protect your cities, and you may be able to quickly cut the AI off from large sections of the map and grabbing the resources they haven't yet expanded to.

 

[Katharsis]

Does Shoshone civ start with scout(pathfinder) instead of warrior?

If not, I dont think their ability is so powerful at all.

Since by the time you build your first pathfinder(they are even more expensive), you already had to get the ruins with your warrior or risk losing it to nearby civs.

Am i missing something?

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Thoughts:

1) Pathfinder is SORELY needed. I'm thinking my initial build strategy will probably be Path-Path, trying to pop 2 ruins with each (free tech #1, new weapons) and (plus one pop, new weapons). Then I'd have two beast archers... of course, this assumes the upgrade allows the promotion to carry over.

2) Extra territory will be fantastic or terrible. If its a full second ring, then this will be amazing, especially mid-game, when you find some Iron or Coal that can be settled. Sure, saving the 75 gold from buying a tile might seem insignificant, but hey, every dollar counts when you're a warmonger. HOWEVER, if the extra territory is random at all, in that you don't get the entire second ring, just a few tiles... then I guarantee that the programming will "miss" giving you any useful extra tiles...

3) Beast warmonger civ. Imagine the artillery/cav rush these guys will be capable of. Cavalry comes right at the last time where extra movement matters (I'm looking at you, panzer). Give it the extra vision and you've got nasty spotters/cleanup cav. If the bonus is +15% in our territory you not only can defend your lands better, but the citadel drilling technique becomes very strong. Pair with other modifiers (Himeji, GG, etc.) and you've got a nasty military.This looks to me to to be the best late-game warmonger civ in the new expansion. Zulu obsolete by industrial, and Assyria seems to be Huns-esque in the sense that they have to go all-in to utilize their UU early. The Assyrian UA might be game-breaking though, we'll have to see.

 

[BAshley]

I always thought the most logical way for the pathfinding to work would be 'pick one of these two completely random ruins goodies'. Doing it Mayan-style seems OP. Picking one of two seems more like eliminating the risk of one of the really bad ones like 'locate nearby barb camps', than getting you all the best goodies like the Mayan style would.

Same with the extra territory thing, an entire extra ring would be very powerful, but something like 'here's a sufficient lump sum of border-culture to purchase 4 tiles right away. Make them count!' would be a bonus worth having but not OP.

 

[comatosedragon]

I still wonder if Pathfinder is balanced. It strikes me as too strong overall.

My thought also. I bet it works kind of like Maya >>> each reward can only be be chosen once. Still very powerful, and with the UA of getting more land, I think this will be a teir 1 Civilization. And most likely the one I will play first.